Quads argument
 

I'm having an argument with a friend about the way he played a quads hand last night. I don't have the hand history, as it's not my computer, but I'm hoping the forum can settle the debate.

I know it's a quads hand, and is thus kind of boring, but we'll see. The lone read is that the BB will open bet nearly any two cards. Not enough hands to know if the BB can hit the raise button.

10-handed
Hero is the SB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 limpers, Hero raised, BB & limpers call (8 SB)

Flop = K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets, BB calls, L1 calls, L2 calls (6 BB)

Turn = Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, BB bets, L1 calls, L2 calls, Hero calls (10 BB)

River = 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, BB bets, L1 calls, L2 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, L1 calls, L2 folds.

One of us is arguing that the turn & river play is too passive & isn't a line which wins the max over time (i.e. ram & jam instead), while the other is arguing the max was extracted.

So ram & jam, use Hero's line, do something else? *Why's* including your expected bets per street would be cool to read.

Edit: Sorry, screwed up the post. Hero was SB, not button.

Re: Quads argument
 

How is Hero the Button if he acts before BB?

And the turn play is just ugly. Ugly ugly ugly.

Re: Quads argument
 

Not check/raising the turn is a crime against humanity.

Re: Quads argument
 

I almost wish the river had been checked through just to punish hero for not raising the turn. I don't mind the slowplay on the flop and even the turn check can be argued for for the deception it creates, but once BB does this fantastic favor by betting that has to be raised. What if someone just made kings or queens full, there may be tons of action to be had. Any draws would have to call on the turn. Then you'd just lead the river.

Re: Quads argument
 

yup. easiest check raise ever, since bb will open bet any two, and you'll trap all those guys drawing dead. they won't call bets on the river unless they hit, in which case they'll raise and you'll win money on the turn and river.

but who cares

Re: Quads argument
 

If I have quads by the turn I tend to let everybody see another card and hope one of them boats up or makes a flush. The downside is that nobody makes anything and folds, apparently fish only suck out on the river when I don't have a hand. The upside is a lot more betting if they hit.

In the long run I don't think it makes much difference, because how often do you get quads anyway? And how many of those times does everyone fold the flop?

Re: Quads argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not check/raising the turn is a crime against humanity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Quads argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
but who cares

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]
easiest check/raise ever

[/ QUOTE ]

With a coordinated board like this, why do you advocate trusting this read & check/raising (which I think you just said you did) rather than betting out hoping to 3-bet? Even though Hero had a read that BB will bet any 2, we don't *know* he would given this action & this scary board, right? Does that change things, or no?

Re: Quads argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the long run I don't think it makes much difference, because how often do you get quads anyway? And how many of those times does everyone fold the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, we both know this. We're hoping the forum can forget this for a moment to settle who wins the beer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Quads argument
 

grunch,

Ultimately it depends. I agree with the hero's line on this hand. It boils down to the hero's reads on LP1 and LP2.

Say Hero check raises the turn, and everyone follows. That's 3 additional BB. Because of the C/R he'll should lead out on the river. Assuming that BB and LP1 call but LP2 folds, thats 2 additional BB for a total of Five...The same number of bets per the line he played. However if LP2 folds to the C/R on the turn (read dependent) then the C/R nets fewer bets by 1BB. If the read is LP2 is a calling station that'll stick around with a C/R and 1 bet on the river than ram and jam on the turn would be the way I'd play it.