Quick flop question
 

Button is okay, with a 7.5% pfr over a decent sample.
MP1 is loose passive
CO is unknown.

7 handed
I have 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP2. CO posts a blind.

MP1 limps, I raise, CO calls, Button 3-bets, blinds fold and the 3 of us all call.

4 players for 13sb Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Checked to button who bets, MP folds, I....?

What is my play?

If MP1 had called the flop bet does that change your plan?

--Rico

Re: Quick flop question
 

If MP1 had called I'd fold but since he folded I'd checkraise and see what the CO wants to do.

Re: Quick flop question
 

I find this very difficult.

Any line that involves betting the turn makes me uncomfortable, because we might get raised and we have no idea if we have enough outs to continue. We also may get raied on the turn by a hand we beat.

With the thought that any hand that is ahead of us or has a flush draw isn't folding anyway, and any hand we're beating and doesn't include a flush draw has no more than 4 outs anyway, I'm totally happy with checking this turn. We might miss value against a big flush draw or something, but, in fact, they will very often bet when we check anyway.

Personally, I think I kind of like betting out on this flop with the intent of checking the turn.

The river is tough. If we miss but no overcards hit, I think check-calling the river is viable. If we hit a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] we should bet and fold to a raise.

Re: Quick flop question
 

My line on the flop didn't include the intention of betting the turn either.

Re: Quick flop question
 

Say CO folded and Button three bet us. Are we releasing or continuing with the flush draw and bet folding if we hit?

Re: Quick flop question
 

In these circumstances, I doubt that either a pair of 8s or an 8 kicker flush is going to win this hand often enough. Button may just be betting anything due to the PF aggression, but I am not convinced it is profitable to stick around, especially if MP had called. If you do stay in, I think a raise is better to push out CO and to see how button responds.

Re: Quick flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
The river is tough. If we miss but no overcards hit, I think check-calling the river is viable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you please explain why check calling the river is correct? Assuming you cred the flop and he three bet.
Or if he just called the flop cr but still bet the turn and river.

Re: Quick flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Say CO folded and Button three bet us. Are we releasing or continuing with the flush draw and bet folding if we hit?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's exactly my plan. The not releasing part I mean.

Re: Quick flop question
 

Shant

You know, I didn't like the thought of a raise at first...thinking that there aren't many hands that he is calling for 1sb but folding for 2sb (maybe 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], TT or 99)...but with the pot so large, perhaps that is a probably a poor assumption.

Also, even though we are behind something like 60% of the time now (given button's range), we are drawing live often against his overpair. Probably worth the extra 0.75BB (assuming we get 3-bet a healthy amount) in this large pot.

Also spending the extra up front is likely to make our river decision easier.

--Rico

Re: Quick flop question
 

I think it makes the turn easier too. I think if you checkraise and the CO sticks around you can check/fold the turn.