88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

8/16 @ Canterbury

Game: Little tighter than usual, and pretty passive.

SB: probably the most aggressive player at table besides myself but doesn't play particularly well postflop and is too loose preflop. I also just saw him limp reraise agianst my open w/ AQ off.

BB: Pretty tight, unimaginative, ABC.

utg: This guy is on stone tilt. Is usually a little too loose, but had been getting killed in the last 3 orbits and is in desperation mode. Four bet in the hand mentioned above w/ JTs against my open raise and limp reraiser.

Me: Running real well and running over table. I sense a little frustration, exhibited by the overaggression preflop by above villains.

Hand: Utg open limps, 3 folds, MP3 calls, I raise in CO w/8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 1 fold, SB 3 bets, BB calls, and we all call taking a flop of 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets, Utg raises, MP3 folds, I three bet?

This might seem easy, but I think a fold can be found, any reasons my play is good along w/ reasons to fold would be appreciated. Keep in mind this is a typically passive (besides sb, and utg), live game.

Re: 88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

Given your read, i aint folding yet, i three bet, i wont be happy if its capped, however would anybody to this with a flush draw?

So i three bet, bet the turn if checked to, i probably muck it if i get popped on the turn.

This is really read dependant, would villan limp 99 TT? would he go crazy with A7?

If SB caps i think you screwed

Re: 88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

I wouldn't fold here, but I think an argument can be made for just calling. Given the BB's pre-flop play, he's not going anywhere to a three bet.

Re: 88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

I think just calling would be disastrous. 1st of all, How would I proceed on turn and river. I think if I am going to stay in the hand I need to define it right away. There are two questions that need to be answered before the bet gets big.

1st-What did sb 3-bet preflop and check flop w/? I would expect him to bet this raggedty flop about 80% of the time after a preflop 3-bet, another 15% I would expect him to cr me since I was original raiser and am in position, this would normally be a good play w/ a board like this no matter what he has because he should expect it to get checked around to me a good percentage of the time.

2nd-wtf does bb have? I describe him as being tight-abc. He calls 2 more bets preflop out of bb and bets into the field on the flop. I am very scared of what he might have.

More thoughts...I do not have 8 of clubs, so I am effectively drawing to 1 out if I am behind. Worse many cards could come that would keep me in the pot on turn even when I am drawing near dead.

Re: 88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

I don't have the time to type this up right now but I think this is a pretty sticky spot so if you fellas could take a look and discuss.

For Mitch, I don't at all think calling is "disastrous." My gut tells me its better than raising. I suspect folding might be better altogether. I'll have more time to think about it in a couple of days.

Also, "defining your hand" is not a reason to raise.

Re: 88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

I thought about coldcalling, but I figured that there was a decent chance that I was ahead. I figured that I was going to need to catch good on turn and river, and as such I needed to go ahead and make it 3 bets to hopefully fold out sb who would almost always call 2 cold w/ overs the way the pot was developing. Also I thought that there was a decent chance that bb was betting hoping that top pair was good and thought sb had checked w/overs. As far as utg, well his raise means little though I suspect he was on a club draw.

I figure that if i 3 bet I can force the overs out and possibly top pair getting me head up w/ flush draw. I can handle that. I am not sure what coldcalling will accomplish. I have basically 1 out and alot of outs against me. I would like to see if either sb or bb will stick in a fourth bet so I can fold turn safely unless my 1 outer hits or a bdsd develops. I do not want to pay off or end up folding a winner when the board gets scary because I did not take the betting lead when it was there for me. I agree that folding might be the best play, but I would like to get your input when you have a chance about why you like coldcalling in position as opposed to raising.

Re: 88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

[ QUOTE ]
So i three bet, bet the turn if checked to, i probably muck it if i get popped on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]
spot on. Play it real ABC. We have an overpair and pf limpers are betting at a 76x 2-tone flop. Our hand is vulnerable but probably best so we raise to narrow the field. Folding requires a read like "the guy who raised the flop only raises with 2pair or better but only limps in EP with medium pairs so he must have a set." Not the case here. nh.

Re: 88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

I agree with Brett -
Coldcalling is absolutely the play here based on your reads IMO. If UTG keeps the lead on the turn, you can raise and maybe push BB off a better hand; and you probably have UTG beat. The only tricky part that I can see to this play is that I don't know if you can safely fold to a 3-bet vs. a tilted player.

Re: 88 overpair w/excessive pre and postflop action
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given your read, i aint folding yet, i three bet, i wont be happy if its capped, however would anybody to this with a flush draw?

So i three bet, bet the turn if checked to, i probably muck it if i get popped on the turn.

This is really read dependant, would villan limp 99 TT? would he go crazy with A7?

If SB caps i think you screwed

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer your question, villain would absolutely never limp w/ 99 or TT. And yes he would definitely go crazy w/ A7. I agree that I would certainly fold turn if I was check raised, and would certainly reevaluate if it was 4 bet (5-bet cap) by SB, because I am never ahead id this happens.