ethical river question
 

This situation only comes up in B&M, limit hold'em play.

You're heads up, out of position, and leading on the flop and the turn, and are called both times. The river comes, and before you even do anything, your opponent puts his "call" out.

Is this a call? If you meant to check, is it a contract bet? If you were bluffing and saw that he was going to call, can you check, and give him the option to take his chips back and check it back?

Is it unethical to make believe you checked, his call was officially a bet, and you now have the option to check-raise?

I was in a hand when I had a medium pocket pair and raised preflop and lead all the way with one overcard, but all of a sudden I hit my set on the river. I was contemplating my best move, when all of a sudden he throws his chips out there. I said "Wait, I didn't do anything yet. But ok, I bet, you call, and I have a set" and flip my cards over. But afterwards I was thinking if it would have been unethical to say that I checked, he bet, and now I have the option to raise.

Re: ethical river question
 

Here are undisputable facts:

1.) You are playing to win money
2.) You will win more from your opponents misktakes than your good play
3.) Your opponent made a mistake
4.) Mix 1+2 add a dash of 3
5.) Let cool and enjoy!

-ZEN

Re: ethical river question
 

this same thing happened to me, only my opponent had the lead in the betting -- I have flush draw OOP, I check/call turn, river completes my flush and villain bets out of turn.

In my case I thought for a second, saw the angle villain could possible be running, and just decided to throw two bets out there without saying anything. He gets all douchey at this point and asked the dealer if I'd checked (??? so clearly he knows the score), dealer says no you bet out of turn and he raised you. I tell douche he can take one back if he wants, he says no I have two pair I'm betting anyways.

In hindsight, the correct play in my case would have been to verbally and deliberately check, and then just sit there until the dealer told me it was my action.

it's complicated a bit here because you have initiative, so a check at this point could definitely result in a check behind from your opponent.

I say let him learn a valuable lesson about betting in turn.

Re: ethical river question
 

It would be unethical to check and hold him to a bet with the intent of check raising, in my opinion. And also, if this is a low limit game, it's probably not worth an extra big bet to alienate some call station fish who will donate a lot more over the long run.

Re: ethical river question
 

[ QUOTE ]
this same thing happened to me, only my opponent had the lead in the betting -- I have flush draw OOP, I check/call turn, river completes my flush and villain bets out of turn.

In my case I thought for a second, saw the angle villain could possible be running, and just decided to throw two bets out there without saying anything. He gets all douchey at this point and asked the dealer if I'd checked (??? so clearly he knows the score), dealer says no you bet out of turn and he raised you. I tell douche he can take one back if he wants, he says no I have two pair I'm betting anyways.

In hindsight, the correct play in my case would have been to verbally and deliberately check, and then just sit there until the dealer told me it was my action.

it's complicated a bit here because you have initiative, so a check at this point could definitely result in a check behind from your opponent.

I say let him learn a valuable lesson about betting in turn.

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I think this is a different case. It doesn't sound like the OP's villain was in any way trying to shoot an angle. In your case, it's very possible. And in your case, the aggressor is the one acting out of turn, not the passive caller.

Re: ethical river question
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would be unethical to check and hold him to a bet with the intent of check raising, in my opinion. And also, if this is a low limit game, it's probably not worth an extra big bet to alienate some call station fish who will donate a lot more over the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. it was 10/20. and he was a huge donator.

Re: ethical river question
 

I have something similar... HU on the turn, he bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I cap. On the river, he says "go ahead" and throws out a bet. I announce raise and throw out my chips. He says he meant he was just calling my inevitable bet.

Re: ethical river question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have something similar... HU on the turn, he bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I cap. On the river, he says "go ahead" and throws out a bet. I announce raise and throw out my chips. He says he meant he was just calling my inevitable bet.

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how did the floor rule? is "go ahead" a contract check? or is throwing out his chips a contract bet? confusing..

Re: ethical river question
 

Since you didn't check it is of course unethical to claim that you had checked. Lying about having taken an action is unethical.

Now if you want to ask the dealer if he is now bound to bet if you choose to check (since he acted out of turn) that is fine. And if the house rule is that his action of throwing out those chips is binding I see nothing wrong with your now announcing a check and raise.

Re: ethical river question
 

[ QUOTE ]

Now if you want to ask the dealer if he is now bound to bet if you choose to check (since he acted out of turn) that is fine. And if the house rule is that his action of throwing out those chips is binding I see nothing wrong with your now announcing a check and raise.

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Most times people doing this would check through if you didn't bet, and where I play his action wouldn't be binding since I didn't act yet. If he is a fish, I don't think it is worth pressing this much more, and you will usually get that extra BB back quickly enough from him.