Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

Hero is in BB with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4 players limp, Hero raises in BB, limpers call.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero leads out, gets two callers, villian raises, 1 player folds, Hero calls, 1 other player calls. Turn is the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Hero checks to Villian who also checks. River is the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Board reads K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero checks, 1 player all-in, villian bets, back to Hero. There are 6-7 bb in the pot. Hero folded, thinking villian was not bluffing and would not value bet anything hero could beat.

Thoughts, comments?

-J

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

3bet the flop, bet the turn

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3bet the flop, bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I would almost always play the hand the way you suggest here, however, for some reason I decided to play it more passively, as a sort of defensive deception type of play.

-J

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

well....the pre-flop play wasn't terrible.

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

I'd fold the river in a pot of 6bb-7bb. Though I wouldn't because I would 3bet the flop and lead a non scare turn.
If he calls there and something comes in on the river, then it's usually pretty ugly, and I usually determine what to do by the preflop and flop action and the player.

If the guy is a nit or passive I bet the river and fold to a raise, but if he is super-lag you can't do that because they can AND DO bluff-raise the river, so I would check-call most (but not all) of the time.

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

I'm as much of a fan of a turn check raise as anyone, but on a mega draw board like this you just can't check and let a free card come off.

I'm also almost not folding top two pair for a single bet on the river in a decent sized pot when I haven't shown any strength postflop.

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

Really bad lay down. You just called his flop raise and then checked the turn and river. IMO he will value bet a lot of hands you beat.

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

...I guess I was sort of thinking that with everyone limping before the flop, it wasnt inconceivable for someone to hold 9T or AT, and with the flush draw there, I will the lose the pot roughly 1/2 the time to a straight or flush when I dont fill up, so that's why I kind of backed off on the flop. I am almost certaintly should have bet the turn, but I chose to give a free card because I felt the villian's action on the turn would give me a more definitive idea of what he held. Since he checked, I had to put him on some kind of draw (probably a flush?), and since they both got there on the river (str8 and flush) and since the pot wasnt huge, I decided to lay down.

It was one of those situations where I tried to play defensive instead of offensive and it totally backfired. Just calling his raise on the flop led me to check the turn, which led to a free card which led to me getting bluffed out on the river because I slickly had decided via my defensive play that my opponent was on the flush draw.

In hindsite (which is always 20/20) I should have three bet the flop, led out on the turn, and possibly bet the river and folded to a raise or possibly check call against a loose aggressive player. But this guy wasnt a LA, he was tight and timid, another reason I decided to lay down. But hindsite is always 20/20

-J

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...I guess I was sort of thinking that with everyone limping before the flop, it wasnt inconceivable for someone to hold 9T or AT, and with the flush draw there, I will the lose the pot roughly 1/2 the time to a straight or flush when I dont fill up, so that's why I kind of backed off on the flop. I am almost certaintly should have bet the turn, but I chose to give a free card because I felt the villian's action on the turn would give me a more definitive idea of what he held. Since he checked, I had to put him on some kind of draw (probably a flush?), and since they both got there on the river (str8 and flush) and since the pot wasnt huge, I decided to lay down.

It was one of those situations where I tried to play defensive instead of offensive and it totally backfired. Just calling his raise on the flop led me to check the turn, which led to a free card which led to me getting bluffed out on the river because I slickly had decided via my defensive play that my opponent was on the flush draw.

In hindsite (which is always 20/20) I should have three bet the flop, led out on the turn, and check called the river. But hindsite is always 20/20

-J

[/ QUOTE ]


Check/calling the river is a bad line against anyone but lags.

edit: I type like crap

Re: Made bad laydown, thoughts?
 

How in the world can you lay this hand down? You are ahead of about a billion hands he bets here. Especially after he checked the turn. I mean he has shown no aggression other than on the flop which means jack in a SS game.

Stop thinking of monsters in the closet and keep betting until they definitively tell you otherwise.

This play just makes me cry.

3bet, bet, bet.

Any other line should be tossed.