thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

villian is 11/8/3.2

any reason to raise the flop and take control?
could i possibly be ahead on the river?

basically i just wanted to let him keep bluffing and didnt want to put any more money in if i was behind, but then by the river things were looking grim

Party Poker 3.00/6.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.67 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.67 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.67 BB.

ive been posting a lot of passively played hands recently, but dont worry, ill probly do some more crazy LAG [censored] soon enough

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I think you can fold on the turn safely. you were WA/WB on flop, but turn is very scary for someone betting with TT or worse.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I don't quite understand the call down here. Ok, we're worried about him having an ace or a pp higher than our JJ. But he might have a lower PP. I think you need to raise the turn for a free showdown or just fold there. He might very well fold a queen by putting you on a flush or a slowplayed ace. He probably won't, but it's a nice side effect when you're really just trying to get a bit of money out of 88-TT.

In summary, enough stuff beats us that I think we need to fold or find a raise to punish him when we're ahead. Feel free to flame me if I'm entirely off base here; I'm fairly inexperienced in this type of situation.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

Raise the flop.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

UTG isn't so likely to be betting KQ into you on the flop, so I don't think the turn card changes the situation as much as it appears to. Still, I think there are various things to take into account:

(1) While it wasn't particularly likely that UTG was betting a flush draw in the first place, the small number of remaining flush combos (K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] seem like the main ones we much to concern ourselves with, at this point) are now ahead of you.

(2) The fact that Villain is betting again on an additional broadway card is troublesome. However, that third club might've emboldened him, if he's just got, say, T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

(3) You are now drawing dead against AQ/QQ, and you've lost all folding equity versus QQ. But it's not like you were drawing well against either of those hands anyway, and I have some doubts about Villain both having and dumping QQ on the flop (or on a turn blank).

Anyway, I actually don't think the king changes a whole lot either, except that once again Villain bet despite the card that fell. I suspect you were behind a hand like AQ/AJ/AT to begin with.

I'm thinking that, in a way, it would make more sense to either fold the turn or call both the turn and the river. But Villain's willingness to fire again on the river shouldn't be disregarded, and, really, your play in the hand seems okay to me.

As for the flop, I guess raising is an option, but you're not going to learn much by raising. If you raise, I think mainly you're doing it in hopes of driving out KK-JJ and also to charge a flush draw that isn't so likely anyway and that you probably aren't much of a favorite over (K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], in particular, is in fine shape against you, and it's the most likely flush draw, too).

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I prefer raising the flop and folding to a 3bet. If the raise is called I'd check the turn in an attempt to induce a bluff.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

since you've disagreed with everyone else so far, i think this deserves some explanation

sorry to point this post out, but i think this is the kind of post jason was talking about in his recent HUSH thread. at least it is for me.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
since you've disagreed with everyone else so far, i think this deserves some explanation

sorry to point this post out, but i think this is the kind of post jason was talking about in his recent HUSH thread. at least it is for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should read the OP's post first, then reply.

Its simple equity, really. This is either a continuation bet, in which case we need to punish it, or he's got the goods. Either way, if we call down, he's getting what he wants.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

he asked if there were reasons to raise the flop, you simply said "raise the flop". i dont see what the point was.

rj

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
he asked if there were reasons to raise the flop, you simply said "raise the flop". i dont see what the point was.

rj

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP refered to his 2 lines, and I gave him my opinion.