Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

Still a few months away but the Commerce 40 is definitely on the horizon.

Things I've noticed:

+ The games are MUCH more aggressive than they are at the 20.

+ Table selection seems to play a more important role than it does at the 20.

That said, I'm honestly not quite sure how to deal with the extra aggression at the 40.

Here's an example hand:

Three limpers, Hero is on the button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero raises. Blinds fold.

Flop (4 players, 9 sb): A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Bet, Raise, Fold, Hero...?

More often than one would expect, Hero actually has the best hand here and his reverse implied odds are not that terrible. But it's nearly impossible to tell if that's the case here or in any given hand that's similar to this example.

So, what's the best way to proceed? Stick it out with these types of hands and protect your hand as you would ordinarily do? (In this case, I'd cold-call the flop and opt for a turn-raise.)

Is that the way to deal with highly aggressive (but not loose-aggressive stupidity) games? Be stubborn, increase your variance, and increase your long term win rate?

Also, I'd say no less than 60% of pots are raised preflop. How does this affect your starting conditions? Should some Axs and suited connectors be cut out of your game?

After speaking with a few 20/40 regulars who have dabbled in the 40 game, they all pretty much say the same thing: The 40 game does offer a higher profit/hour, but it's not nearly twice as much as the 20 game. And the variance is much worse.

All things considered, it sounds like the 40 game is worth it. It's just going to be a little messier and I'll probably need a higher bankroll than 300 BB to be completely comfortable.

Thoughts?

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

A sufficient bankroll is necessary. I am saving up 40k before i start playing the 40 game. I hope that this will be enough to cushion against any learning curve. Also, i mainly play short-handed or 6 max tables online and have found that this has helped me with the more aggressive players.

PITS

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

300BB is no kind of BR if you are playing as a sole source of income.

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

I don't have much to add as I only played this game last night for the very first time. I had an extra boost of confidence as mikel wanted part of my action and was begging me to sit in the 60/120. The aggression level is almost always greater as the limits increase but I really doubt the play is that much tougher except for the good players. Overall, it was fun and I am jonesing to get back in.

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

table selection

everyone sucks.

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

[ QUOTE ]
300BB is no kind of BR if you are playing as a sole source of income.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would assume at least 500-600 is best.

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

If you're willing to move down if you lose half your role, you can make due with a lot less. That being said, if you're intent on playing 40 and nothing else, then I agree 500-600 bets is safer.

Jeff

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

Is 60% of pots being raised pf a lot in live games like this?

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

What are you p[rotecting your hand from on that frop? I think maybe you should wait a little longer than you think on the 40.

Re: Commerce 40/80 - General Observations
 

On the specific hand, I'd fold my K-Q almost 100% of the time here. A bet and a raise into my pre-flop raise means I'm not better than 2nd place.

When the game's super-maniacal, I tend to follow the wild games advice in HPFAP and play only premium hands, especially from early position. When the game's super-loose but more passive, I tend to play more hands, especially suited, and especially from late position, again similar to the advice in the loose games section of HPFAP.

Klepton's a good player and I respect his advice. But game selection is very important at the Commerce 40-80. There is a big group of poor players and getting into their game, and on their left, is very important.

The aggressiveness manifests itself, it seems to me, not so much pre-flop as on the turn. Learn your opponents and their habits, their likes and dislikes. You talk about being stubborn: that strikes me as exactly the opposite of what is best at the Commerce 40-80. Let your opponents be stubborn.