Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

$2/$4 Full Ring at Crypto that has become 6handed

UTG and MP (seem fairly typical semi-loose semi-passive)

SB(loose-passive/semi-aggressive in a weird way, this guy completes EVERY SB, have not seen him raise preflop, has donk bet the flop against my PFR before though, one was mucked at showdown, other was folded on the turn)

Preflop: I am BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
relatively unknown UTG and MP limp , SB completes , <font color="red"> I raise</font>, UTG, MP, SB all call.

(8SB) Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="red">SB bets</font>, I fold...

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

This is a fairly hopeless flop for your AK 4-handed (I would have checked if given the option since you could be drawing nearly dead already) so I like the fold. No BDFD and horribly discounted overs and BDSD because of the diamonds.

Given the read I may have (probably incorrectly) raised hoping to isolate the donk if you thought the others may fold and play from there (I get silly like that sometimes).

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

Hm. We have two overcards and two backdoor draws, although the straight draw is very weak. While our overcards certainly aren't great here, I certainly don't give SB credit for a made hand yet, but if UTG or MP flopped a strong hand this could get ugly. Raising won't chase anyone out that we care about either. Assuming we don't currently have the best hand, at most we have 3 outs for the overcards, .5 for the straight and 1.5 for a total of 5 pre-discounted outs; that's a 10.6% chance of improving tops while we'll have to put in 11.1% of the pot, so we aren't getting strict odds to chase even in the best case. This looks like a good fold to me.

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

Really bad flop for overcards. You are likely behind (if not to the small blind, then to one of the players yet to act). You don't hav the odds to draw, and it migth get raised behind you. Good fold.

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

Anytime you're reading a book about what's a bad flop for AK, they usually give an example that looks something like J98 - so I agree.

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

I would have said to call with no reads since you can't throw away AK here for 1 bet getting 9-1.

But since you said that SB donkbets to your PFR, I would say to raise here and clear up your outs.

Proceed with caution.

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

That's a lousy flop for you, and the pot is still kind of small, so I can see bailing. If you're behind, your diamond outs are tainted and I'm not wild about the king outs either.
I guess the other option is to raise and get in a fight w/ SB, but you have no idea what the others will do.

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

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the pot is still kind of small,

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9SB is not a small pot. That's like saying 9BB is a small pot.

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

This is interesting. Clearly a raise or fold situation, and for me it all depends on what you think UTG and MP will do if faced with two. They're sLsP...uh...oh, eff it. Raise, and give them the chance to fold. If one of them calls you, or if SB 3-bets, fold the turn UI.

Re: Big Slick in the Big Blind
 

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Hm. We have two overcards and two backdoor draws

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Ok. I see that we have a backdoor straight draw, but what's our other backdoor draw? Two pair?

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming we don't currently have the best hand, at most we have 3 outs for the overcards, .5 for the straight and 1.5 for a total of 5 pre-discounted outs;

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It looks like you should be saying we have 3.5 outs rather than the 5 due to the mystery 1.5 out draw we have.