Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

BB is 78/13/1

Party Poker (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold, button calls, hero raises, BB calls, button calls</font>.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
hero bets, call, call

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
hero bets, villian(BB) raises, button folds, hero calls

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero check/calls

Final Pot:

I always find myslef thinking the pot is too big to fold the river. Is this a standard call or should I be folding un-improved? Hero is getting 9.5-1 on a call here.

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

Call, absent a read. If villain is very passive, fold.

Surf

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

getting 9.5-1 i would definitely call.

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

You need more than a stat read to make these folds right/wrong. Barring a read vs. a loose somewhat passive, I'd much this river. Several two pair hands beat you, as well as any 7 or J. If he was semi-bluffing a draw on the turn, it just hit so it looks like all you're beating is a complete bluff or slowplayed lower K. I'd muck it since the K example is pretty unlikely.

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

1 AF isn't very passive when you're talking about very loose players.

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1 AF isn't very passive when you're talking about very loose players.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can we know this without WTSD

or are we assuming loose preflop == loose postflop?

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

you're correct, but there is probably a correlation between preflop and postflop looseness for the very loose preflop players. maybe not in this particular case, but likely. either way, 1 AF opponents aren't 2+2 aggressive, but I probably wouldnt go so far as to call them passive either

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

I think check calling is worst option on this river. The river completes many strait draws and hands you beat are not likely to bet for value here.

Once he raises the turn I put him on a pair plus a draw like 9T, QT, 2 pair, a set, or strait. All these hands are likely given the play of our opponent so far. The Tc is a doublely scary card b/c it completes many strait draws and gives 2 pair or better to many of the hands you were beating on the turn.

I check fold the river w/the next best option betting out and folding to a raise

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1 AF isn't very passive when you're talking about very loose players.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can we know this without WTSD

or are we assuming loose preflop == loose postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure about this, but this is what i think he means, i might be totaly wrong tho.

With a VPIP like that, he is going to play so much crap that he can't be as aggressive as we are.
That is why we can assume he is more aggro than a 25/17/1.
Does this make any sense?

-Per

Re: Do I need to be folding this river un-improved?
 

[ QUOTE ]
BB is 78/13/1

Party Poker (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold, button calls, hero raises, BB calls, button calls</font>.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
hero bets, call, call

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
hero bets, villian(BB) raises, button folds, hero calls

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero check/calls

Final Pot:

I always find myslef thinking the pot is too big to fold the river. Is this a standard call or should I be folding un-improved? Hero is getting 9.5-1 on a call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably fold this, you're beating very few hands here. A more specific read might make this a call down, like if he cr bluffs a lot or auto crs tpwk in this situation.