SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

In a self-imposed exile of all forms of poker to stop the 'bleeding' of what little money I have left, I have taken it upon myself to read 7CS4AP at least once in the next few days.

Although along the way, if it would be ok with you guys, I might want to pop a question or nine in this thread, and if you're bored and feel like partaking in 'n00b enlightenment', as always it would be appreciated. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

And who knows, this thread may end up a classic for future n00bs who may migrate over the plains from Hold'em to Stud, and/or inspire AndyB to keep writing his 'Small Stakes Stud' book?

... but first things first. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I have two questions: (or as the French say Deux Q's!) [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

1) Playing Big Pairs pg. 31

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a big pair, but two or more unduplicated upcards higher than your pair are behind you, you probably should fold if your kicker is poor and you don't have a two-flush. However, if your kicker is good - either a live overcard or a live straight flush card - and if one of your downcards, go ahead and raise. (If reraised you should usually call.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, unduplicated meaning not two Kings behind me, but rather a King and a Queen or a King and an Ace etc.

Let me set the scene:

BI: xx xx 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SDM: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Vil: xx xx J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Vil: xx xx Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Ok, so the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Brings it in and now I'm looking at Split 9's with an 8 kicker.

Now according to Roy West's advice, I'm not playing this hand unless it has an Ace or King for a kicker (both higher than what's showing on the board)

But according to that quote from 7CS4AP I should raise with this hand? Is this correct?

2) Playing Big Pairs pg 33

This question is because I'm mathematically challenged. (don't hate me, I was raised by wolves) [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say youy are in a $30-$60 game and three players limp in for $10 each. You are getting $80-to-$10 or 8-1 on your call. If you raise you will be getting $140-to-$30 or only 4 & 2/3-to-1 assuming all active players call (which will almost always be the case).

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't understand the math at all in this one.

Many Thanks,
SDM

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

Nines are more of a medium pair than a big one, but you have the right basic idea. I would be more inclined to limp with this hand in a small-stakes game, though. You're not likely buy the antes or get it heads-up by raising, and those are the most important reasons to raise with a medium pair.

I think that folding a pair just because there are a couple of over-cards behind you is frequently a mistake in small games, because these players are less inclined to punish you by raising than mid-stakes players are.

****************************

$30/60 game, three players have limped. There are eight $5 antes ($40), the bring-in ($10) and three calls ($30). That's $80, and your call closes the action, so you're getting 8:1.

Same scenario, but you are contemplating raising. If everyone calls, there will be four $30 calls ($120) and the same $40 in antes, for a total of $160. You're getting a little more than 5:1 at that point. I think that this was mentioned before and that the consensus was that it was a typo. I would also dispute that everyone will "almost always" call, especially the bring-in.

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

Thankyou AndyB, I hope I do not offend anyone because of this thread which is probably elemenatry to most of you guys.

Next Question:

3) Playing Big Pairs + Theory of Poker (7CS4AP pg 33/TOP pg 39)

This question relates to knowing your odds of winning in comparison to the pot odds on 3rd St, by using the quote and same maths in Q.2 above. (which I will repost here to save scrolling)

In the example in 7CS4AP pg 33 it gives you this hand:

T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] / 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say youy are in a $30-$60 game and three players limp in for $10 each. You are getting $80-to-$10 or 8-1 on your call. If you raise you will be getting $140-to-$30 or only 4 & 2/3-to-1 assuming all active players call (which will almost always be the case).

[/ QUOTE ]

7CS4AP goes on to say:

[ QUOTE ]
Even if there was no more betting after third street, it would be right to only call, rather than raise with some of these hands such as a big pair with a dead pair card. Your hand could easily have less than a one-in-five chance of winning, but still more than one-in-nine. Thus calling would be correct while raising would theoretically cost you money.

[/ QUOTE ]

So we have a dead pair card, lets set the scene:

BIn: xx xx 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Vn1: xx xx 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Vn2: xx xx 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Vn3: xx xx T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SDM: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Ok, now in Sklansky's classic the Theory of Poker (TOP) on pg 39, he gives the example of demonstrating the effect of exposed cards on the chance of making a hand using the example of 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] / A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on 3rd st and you've seen 7 other cards.

It says: (and I quote)

[ QUOTE ]

Number of 5s and Aces...............Chances for Aces Up
seen besides your own.................or three-of-a-kind(%)
0 .................................................. ...... 41.0
1 .................................................. ...... 34.1
2 .................................................. ...... 26.5
3 .................................................. ...... 18.3
4 .................................................. ...... 10.5

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so back to the example in 7CS4AP where we have T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] / 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and one of our tens is gone:

BIn: xx xx 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Vn1: xx xx 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Vn2: xx xx 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Vn3: xx xx T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SDM: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

According to the example in TOP I have a 34.1% chance of making Tens Up or Trip Tens/Trip 5's.

According to Lou Krieger in The Poker Player's Bible (pg 217), you convert percentages to odds by subtracting the percentage from 100 and divide the result by the same percentage:

100 - 34.1 = 65.9.

65.9/34.1 = 1.93-to-1 against an event occuring.

So the odds against me making my hand are 1.9-to-1? (or a little under 2-1) and I have a 34.1% chance of making my hand? (a little over 3-1?) (this is conflicting, there is an error here somewhere)

If I limp I'm getting 8:1, if I raise I'm getting 4 & 2/3:1.

If my Pot Equity is 34.1% and there are 4 other people in the hand who will almost always call if I raise according to 7CS4AP, (though AndyB says not always) shouldn't I go ahead and raise since the odds are in my favour, or am I missing something?

Cheers,
SDM

(for the record, I apologize for this question in advance)

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the odds against me making my hand are 1.9-to-1? (or a little under 2-1) and I have a 34.1% chance of making my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your calculation here is correct. 34.1% chance of winning is 1:1.9 odds.


[ QUOTE ]
If my Pot Equity is 34.1% and there are 4 other people in the hand who will almost always call if I raise according to 7CS4AP, (though AndyB says not always) shouldn't I go ahead and raise since the odds are in my favour, or am I missing something?


[/ QUOTE ]

The missing part is: hitting your hand is not necessarily winning the pot.

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope I do not offend anyone because of this thread which is probably elemenatry to most of you guys.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all; keep 'em coming.

Remember, this is our (small stakes stud players) forum too.

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

Thanks Ray and Don. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

4) Playing Three-Flushes pg 48

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a three-flush with one card higher than the raiser's door card, then you should always at least call, unless your hand is not very live. This is true even if you are fairly sure that you will be heads-up against a probable big pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, lets set the scene:

BIn: xx xx 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Brings In _ Folds
Vil: xx xx K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Completes
Vil: xx xx 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] folds
SDM: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Calls

So I'm heads-up, my spades are live, his suit is dead and I'm pretty sure he's got split kings. I've got one overcard and I'm also playing a flush draw heads-up. This can't be good. (can it?)

I thought the general rule was:

Flush draws = Multiway.
Straight draws = Multiway (& only if you 'back into them')
Pairs = heads up.

In the scenario above I've got three outs to make a higher pair and I desperately need to improve against someone who is going to lead the betting all the way and doesn't need to improve.

Is this advice really correct, if so, how?

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

I think you need to consider the chances of being ahead at showdown (which does not equate just to pairing your ace or catching a flush), how those chances break down after fifth street, when the bet doubles, how much is in the pot from the ante's and bring in, and the likelihood you will get paid all the way. (What I mean by the first bit is say you will be ahead hot and cold 45% at showdown. After 5th, you will have a pretty good idea how oftn you will be ahead at showdown for THIS hand, so going forward you can make the right decisions. With 3 big bet rounds, or 2 big bet 1 bigger bet round as I have seen spread in some places, it is worth it to get a better fix on your chances since you are getting odds to start with. Of course if you open pair your ace you probably are not going to get paid off (?) )

I think having your ace up really impacts the way you should play the hand, though, not being really good at stud, I am not sure how.

Say the ante is $5 and the bring in 10, 30/60 game as described above.
It is $30 to call a $70 pot. Most likely (I think) you are calling again on 4th regardless, so it is effectively 5:3 on your money ($30 now + $30 on 4th to $70 now + villains $30 on 4th). After 5th, you should know your chances pretty well and can play appropriately from there. You may also get a free card along the way with an A up, dunno.

I think I like this hand a lot better with the 7 up, with the A up maybe the best way to go is to raise on 3'd and drive since you will be OOP unless villain catches an A or makes an open pair, and he may believe you have the aces you are representing, but I am pretty clueless when it comes to stud.

Great thread by the way, and lousy thread, too, in that it is making me want to start playing stud, which is definitely not in my financial best interest right now.

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

Your 39% to 61% to win this hand in a showdown (giving villian a K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and a 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the hole). That rasies to 41% to 59% if you give yourself the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. But the advice given really isn't to show the villian down but to see 4th street instead. If he catches the 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and you catch the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] then suddenly your the one ahead 61% to 39%.

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

I actually raise with this hand here.. Specifically because of the straight flush kicker and live cards. If you get re-raised you have to call and go to 5th street.

If the kicker was of no value or the hand was partially dead I would just muck it here.

Re: SDM\'s 7CS4AP Questions Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me set the scene:

BI: xx xx 2
SDM: 9 8 9
Vil: xx xx J
Vil: xx xx Q


[/ QUOTE ]

I actually raise with this hand here.. Specifically because of the straight flush kicker and live cards. If you get re-raised you have to call and go to 5th street.

If the kicker was of no value or the hand was partially dead I would just muck it here.