Am I making this too hard?
 

15/30 game.
EP guy limps. I raise with KhKd. Button flat calls, along with the BB and the EP limper.

Flop is: Jc 9h 8c

BB bets and limper calls . . .

What do I do?

Michael

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

i raise here. make it expensive for them to draw out. you are leading here so juice the pot.

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

without any reads i am capping this flop. Depending on the turn card, if he leads most likely i am going into call down mode. You are not reverse dominated, if he has got it already he's got it, if the board pairs or a king hits i am most definitely throwing another one up.

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

Raise it, the MP has a draw of some kind, this is the worst flop for quality pairs... Have fun with that turn you need to dodge a whole slew of cards.

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

Ciaffone says to simply call in "Middle Limit Poker." Is this another example of his weak-tightness that critics of the book point to?

Interstingly, Ciaffone doesn't really give any advice on what the hell you should do after turn, once you have just called on the flop . . .

Michael

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

Calling the flop is not terrible at all imo. I am not sure how much difference in expectation there really is between raising here and waiting to turn to raise a blank. I think calling is my preferred play here at least a fairly large part of time depending on opponents' range of hands.

Edit to say that is largely based on relative position and pot size. Change some variables and it might well change.

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

i think calling here is actually a little better than raising here... i think this is the perfect hand to hope for a card you like on the turn and raise.. there are too many ways this hand can go bad for you with 4 players in... you save money if you hate the turn with an easy fold. just my opinion

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

An argument for calling: The two guys in front of you are probably going to call your raise and then check to you on the turn, so you won't have an opportunity to ptotect your hand from being drawn out on on the river. The guy behind you is going to call two bets on the flop with any good draw; the hands he's going to call one bet with are not really to be feared. So call, and if a blank comes on the turn, you can pop it then.

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

I agree calling is better against reasonable opponents. The point that I was trying to shorthand is if you are up against true donks your pot equity edge might be huge and also if you were in a better relative position to protect your hand it changes the situation.

FWIW here is a post I made a while back about protecting KK:

Big Pot KK hands

Re: Am I making this too hard?
 

I'd call and hope for a blank on the turn. If one fell I would raise or bet if checked to. Why would you want to jam kings on a flop like this? If you raise, when it gets back to your opponents they will be getting excellent odds and are going to be correct in calling with almost anything. Waiting for the turn here is really the only way to protect your hand. Excellent essays on this subject in SSH and Poker Essays.

Mike Emery