Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

In an earlier thread where I advocated a flop fold, bernie posted the following (which received no comment): "so every time you go to the turn youre seeing the river? there are times to fold the turn after calling the flop"

Is this true? Please describe a situation where it makes sense to call one bet on the flop and fold the turn. I honestly believe that I don't do this more than once every 500 hands or so.

Re: Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

When you're in a position to "take one off" with a 5 outer such as bottom or middle pair when you're very sure it won't be raised behind you, making your hand almost certainely won't make a 2nd best hand, and you have the pot odds to do so. This doesn't come up that often I agree.

There are also certain opponents (mostly tight old men) that will raise preflop with whatever, bet the flop, and always check the turn with their naked overcards and always bet the turn with an overpair. Check calling the flop with the intention of check folding the turn is probably correct here with a lot hands, even "only" a gutshot etc etc.

Re: Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

If I didn't fold, I'd prefer to raise the first situation on the flop, or preferably checkraise as then if you miss and check the turn, the "I don't want to look stupid by getting checkraised twice" gene kicks in and they check behind, giving you not only a free shot at the river, but an amazingly successful chance for a river checkraise and some mega implied tilt odds: eg, You are dealt JTs in the BB; 2 people limp, the button raises, SB calls, you call, all call. 10SB in the pot. Flop KT3 with the K of your suit. Check, checkraise the button who calls with his QQ or KQ or even AA. Turn is a 5 of your suit. Check and its checked to the button, who looks at you very suspiciously and most likely checks. River T. Button now "knows" you have nothing and walks right into your checkraise.

If the situation is as you described, I prefer to fold preflop in the second situation (the situation being some tight old man has raised and I don't have a reraising hand). All you are doing is gambling that the guy will have a non pocket pair AND will miss more than half the time.

Re: Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

In your first situation that's not what I'm really refering to. Your play there is fine. I was more refering to you having bottom pair with an overcard kicker, you checking in a blind on the flop, an EP betting and there being several callers to you. In that case calling with the intention of check folding the turn is probably OK.

In the 2nd situation, when, say, I am in the BB and a tight old man as I described open raises in EP, I will call with a wide variety of hands, and should probably go down to almost every hand. You are at insane advantage against this opponent if he plays as described, especially since you can be almost certain that he will not call on the river with ace high ever. In fact I think ever folding here is probably incorrect. But I'd have to crunch numbers and I already got started on the Corona. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

your right....since there may be no gaurantee that there will be a bet on the turn, by some players, so your effective odds may be correct to do so, and wont be diminished....

you can call a bet on the flop, using 'odds with 2 cards to come' if you dont think there will be a bet on the turn. your odds remain intact for the flop call.

in fact...if you fold the flop bet and you have the odds to call with 2 cards to come IF the player doesnt bet the turn, and he in fact 'doesnt' bet the turn, couldnt you technically look back on the hand and be mistaken on your flop fold?

it doesnt come up often, but it is there...and knowing your players helps in this situation...

2 dangerous words in postflop play....always & never

b

Re: Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

except when the guy does bet behind your turn check..thus costing you 2bbs instead of 1sb overall....hard to do a free card play out of position...especially if they think your doing it with a draw. and many who c/r the flop will lead...a double c/r is rare to do and if you pull it off, the hand is either done on the turn, or he calls and you better have a hand...

though, with the right players, it's more possible...

b

this is also a player dependent deal...

b

Re: Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

2 dangerous words in postflop play....always & never

One of the best points I've seen on this forum in a while!

- JAA

Re: Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

Huh? There are plenty of cases where you do this... drawing to a standard gutshot or bottom pair/overcard kicker in medium-sized pots are obvious examples.

Re: Call the flop, fold the turn: Thumbs DOWN!
 

Agreed. I do it all the time. Gutshots, bottom pair, overcards+backdoor draw, etc.

This doesn't even take into consideration the times you are against a predictable opponent who will do things like semibluff the flop but always check behind with less than top pair, etc.