two small pair...
 

Unlike many posters, I seem to do much better online than in live games. The trend continued with the following hand from an online 2-4 game, .25 ante, $1 bring in.

(xx) 2
(xx) 9
(xx) Q
(44) 8 me
(xx) 10
no other relevant cards. suits not relevant.
bring in and four limpers to fourth

(xx) 2-7
(xx) 9-5
(xx) Q-A (o)
(44) 8-8 (me)
(xx) 10-7 (o)

Fourth street, A-Q checks to me, I make it a big bet (optional with pair on board), 10-7 calls, bring in
and 9-5 fold, Q-A raises. He's a new player, just joined table, I have no notes on him. The player to my left is loose passive, would have raised on 3rd with a big pair and is likely to have called with either split 10s or a str8 or 3 -flush draw. My first thought was to fold -- thinking I was against either trip aces or aces and queens. But there are many players in these games who would limp with A-Q-x and raise when they hit an ace. Even many who would limp with J-Q-K and raise when they hit a one-way four str8. There's about $20 in the pot after rake, so I'm getting 5-1 on a call here. But chances are I'll be bet into the whole way and even if I'm winning now I can get outdrawn. I decide to raise, to try to knock out the third player and get head up against what I'm hoping is just one big pair. That way I'm a slight favorite and the money already in gives me an overlay. Plus, by playing this way, I can see if I'm drawing against trip aces or rolled queens. If he reraises, I plan to fold. Yes, I know at higher limits many players will play back at you for deception, but in these games those types of players are very rare and I'm just going to have to hope he isn't one of them. I'm also thinking my 4s and 8s are live and I'm about 3.33 -1 dog to fill (an overlay to the pot). His most likely hand in my mind is Aces and Queens, and if he catches another of either I can fold. After I raised, a bad thing happened: the 10-7 called the two bets. Then a good thing happened: the Q-A didn't raise.

Comments here: Should I just have laid it down? Called down from here? Or do others like the raise?

Everyone caught blanks on fifth and sixth, I bet and was called by both players on fifth, bet and was called by just the Q-A on sixth.

River:

(xx) Q-A-3-6 (x)
(44) 8-8-J-Q (8!)

I had a goooood river, bet my house Q-A called and mucked, so I never saw what he had.

I'm posting this because it's a situation that will come up again: I will limp with small pair, bad kicker if the small pair is buried and live (I won't usually call a raise with this). Then, when I pair my door, I want to try to win right there so I'll usually make the big bet. Often this works or is called by a draw that will fold fifth if it doesn't improve. But sometimes you run into someone else with a hand, as happened here. I think folding is not bad here, calling feels the worst (it may not be terrible from a pot odds/card odds standpoint but it gives you so little information about your opponents real strength), raising gives you control and lets you escape if your opponent has a monster, but can lose you a lot of money when he stays with two better pair.

All comments appreciated...

Re: two small pair...
 

One can't be so sure that three of a kind will play back at you right away. He has position on you, and might wait. He might also have aces up (he does on the end) and be afraid of trips. His cards are very live.

When the loose passive player calls, I would fold unless he is truly terrible. Even though you are getting nice odds, your opponents probably have stronger draws - bigger 2 pair, possibly trips.

The other possiblility is that the AQ has one pair, and the T7 is a live 4 straight. In this scenario, you are ahead, but won't finish ahead all that often. You will also be out of position for the forseeable future, and if you aren't, it means you have to fold unless you filled. I think I'd give it up on 4th, unless my opponents were horrible.

However, in a 2-4 game, they are likely to be horrible, but when your hand is this mediocre, sometimes horrible opponents are the worst, as they won't know enough to fold.

Re: two small pair...
 

Dan,

One factor in my thinking was that the 10-7 was horrible and was likely to have split tens with a three str8, a gutshot four str8 or worse.

Yes, trip aces might wait to play back. I didn't know this player, but when he didn't raise my fifth street bet, I was pretty sure he had aces up or just aces.

Re: two small pair...
 

It seems like you were "raising for information" on 4th. However, you knew your opponents weren't going to fold (at least the AQ), and you did not plan to fold, either (and this fold would be marginal since the pot would be huge). This implies that the information did you no good.

The only way this helps is if you are ahead, and the T7 will now drop 10's or a gutshot. But this is unlikely, unless the AQ makes it 4 bets - and then you know you are drawing to fill (or know with great certainty), so you want the T7 to stay.

Re: two small pair...
 

I'm far from an expert on stud, but I have been playing $1/$2 on Paradise and doing fairly well lately, so I'm going to comment. It has been my experience that small two pairs are trap hands. They are frequently best when you hit them, but often get run down by the river. I usually fold 448 on third, unless it's two suited, live, and I'm in late position relative to the bring-in. The fact that your pair is hidden gives you some deception value.

Given that you did play it, and paired your 8 on 4th, I think you played it reasonably. Some LL online players are bright enough to respect a paired door card. OTOH, there are so many any 3 players that a paired door card frequently means only that the player has a pair. Your raise on 4th is likely to slow down Aces up, if not fold it.

Re: two small pair...
 

If it's any consolation, two small pair is probably the hardest hand to play in this game. It may be best to avoid being in that kind of situation. I am usually one to limp with small pairs and no kicker, but I play pretty well on later streets. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] It is important to realize that the most of the value that this hand has comes from when you make three of a kind. If your game is as passive as the $2/4 cash games I've played in, you may be able to see fifth street or even sixth for your dollar, giving you an even greater chance of hitting your set. I'd like your third street call more if the bring-in were smaller (in most games it's 1/3 or 1/4 of the small bet) or if the ante were bigger (it's $.50 in my local $2/4 game). I won't quibble with calling on third, but it's pretty damned marginal.

How did AQ check to you when you were high on board? [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Having hit your door card on fourth, bet the max and hope they all fold. You are not looking for callers. You're big dog to improve, and you need to fill to have a reasonable chance to beat four people.

I think it is unlikely that the raiser has you beaten on fourth street. If he had started with pocket Aces or Queens, he would probably have raised on third. I think it's likely that he started with an Ace in the hole and has now paired. Your re-raise was probably fine, but I would be more inclined to call and then bet again on fifth if he doesn't improve. I don't want to make the pot so big that I can't fold on a later street should the need arise, and it doesn't sound like the other guy is folding. Calling and then betting fifth street might get the other guy out, as he should fear another raise behind him. Or it might not. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Re: two small pair...
 

1. i would call on fourth street as well. but a checkraiser of a paired door card is obviously dangerous. what you might consider is raising him back or trying to raise on fifth street. his response will give you some info. so i like the reraise. since the 10-7 called you can presume he is on a draw.

2. if you did not reraise on fourth then would you have checkraised? just a thought, since that is what mt first thought was. curious to know what you would have done. sounds like you played it well to me.

Pat

Re: two small pair...
 

The best way to play two small pair ( in low limit games ) is to AVOID situations where you might receive them.

One such way is to NOT call on third with a small buried pair and a small doorcard.

Unless your play is really good on the later streets, try not to get yourself in these situations. In small limit games it is very difficult to get someone off their hand(s). Thats why it is usually best to wait for premium cards in these games.

CJ

Re: two small pair...
 

Andy and CJ -- Yep, I agree it's a very marginal limp. Overcards are very valuable, especially on early streets in these games and when you don't have 'em, it's probably best to fold.

Andy, I think your playing suggestion is right on. You are correct, I bet my eights and got raised. I think I should have just called,then led fifth if he doesn't improve. It saves me a bet when I'm behind and can also look like I slowplayed my trips.

Hello,CJ! Waiting for \"premium hands\" to...
 

play will hurt your action when U do come in. Hence,it's important to limp in with these hands if it doesn't cost too much---otherwise,MOST of yout opponents will not play with U when U do come in with your good hands. U are instilling thoughts in your opponents' head that will hurt your action.
So playing these hands is more of an 'investment' to help U receive some action on your good % hands.
H [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] appy pokering,CJ!
Sitting Bull
PS Playing the "correct" way is not ALWAYS correct!