Button against 2 Maniacs
 

I'm starting to learn to actually use GT+ and all the great stats in poker tracker. Here's an example where I definitely altered my play based on the PT reads.

Both of these guys are off the charts maniacs: 70+ VP$IP, 15-25% raises before flop.

Against a halfway decent player I would have almost certainly folded AT offsuit, but since

1. UltraManiac raised (and had previously capped with garbage several times)
2. Everyone else folded
I figured that I should go over the top and try and isolate UltraManiac. Then things got interesting...

Would appreciate comments on any streets. As well as suggestions on how to better use the wealth of statistical knowledge I have at my disposal.

Thanks!

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 :#A500AF(UltraManiac)/ raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 :#A500AF(UltraManiac)/ caps</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UltraManiac checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UltraManiac raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UltraManiac caps</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UltraManiac bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UltraManiac 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (21.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UltraManiac bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 24.50 BB

Re: Button against 2 Maniacs
 

I don't raise the turn. Against these guys I stop trying to take control of the hand after the flop. They also raise with legitimate hands, and they generally have a reason behind what they're doing.

If I can't get them to slowdown by the turn and my hand isn't very strong, I just call down.

Re: Button against 2 Maniacs
 

I generally agree. However at this point I figure there's still a pretty good chance I'm ahead and I've got a draw to the nuts. So I figured I would fire one more shell with a raise on the turn.

Of course, the last time I tried this against a similar player, he DID have a huge hand sooo, ya never know! You've definitely identified the place in this hand where I'm most uncomfortable with my play.

Clearly 3-bet on the turn was troubling so I slowed down and when I missed the flush on the river I just called.

Re: Button against 2 Maniacs
 

In order for you to get a good read, your read needs to be more than 15-25% raises preflop. The difference is huge: I raise 12% of my hands overall, so 15% isn't a maniac. 25% is closer, though.

How does he play his big hands postflop? What about his not-so-big hands? SB's presence gives you additional clout with this hand, so assuming he fastplays everything, big or small, I like your play.

Rob

Re: Button against 2 Maniacs
 

A valuable lesson that I have learned in my short time playing poker. Just because everyone else is playing garbage at the table, doesn't mean you have the licence to play weak hands. ATos is a weak holding, even if it is up against one random hand. Up against two hands, I can't see how you are ahead.

Re: Button against 2 Maniacs
 

I think this is the first time in months that I've played a hand like ATos against a raise. I was just hearing Ray Zee say,

[ QUOTE ]
Now suppose he is not such a good player. Yippee, that is just the cup of tea we want to drink. Re-raising to isolate him gets good results. You love to play heads up as much as possible, especially if you have position. However, playing as he does, you will not be able to read his hands as well as a tighter more passive player. So it boils down to going to the end and frequently betting and raising with hands that appear to be the best for the situation. In addition, remember to tighten up considerably with your betting as you beat him, as this will no doubt make him slow down some and have better hands himself. It becomes a game of constantly adjusting your play as he does his play.

[/ QUOTE ] Playing with an Aggressive Bully from this month's 2+2 Magazine

The complication, of course, is that I didn't isolate the raiser, but took someone along for the ride. And there was a really good chance one of them had beaten me by the river.

The question is, was my raising my nut flush draw/top pair on the turn with two guaranteed callers for value? (probably not if I believe I could be behind a set/2 pair because that dirties several of the spades)

* I count 7 spades (removing maybe one for the weighted probability that theres 2 pair out there or a set that would fill up with a paired board. But by the same token, if I do have the nuts, I also think there's a good chance one of these guys will have a spade and pay me off big time) Call it 5-6 outs.

* Maybe half an out for the 7 (if I'm up against an A with a higher kicker)
* Maybe half an out for the A (if I'm up against 2 pair that isn't the A)
* A 25% chance I'm ahead already (this is entirely judgmental. can I count that for 9-10?)
Call it 16 outs: 1.9:1 + implied odds for a bunch of bets if I make my flush.

By that (perhaps hopelessly tortured and flawed) logic, it certainly made sense to raise with 2 GUARANTEED callers.

For the record, the aggressor had J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a pair of Jacks, the other guy had K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for jackxxxx! So my reads on these guys did turn out to be spot on (for a change!)

Re: Button against 2 Maniacs
 

Hold on a sec...how do you get from 7 outs (for the spades) plus a half for a 7 plus a half for an ace to 16?

Oh, wait, you're giving yourself 9-10 outs for being ahead on the turn? Ok, I guess that makes a sort of twisted logic (as you point out), but sounds to me like you're trying to justify a loose hand after the fact.

That said, I frequently do the same thing, particularly later in the evening and on weekends when I figure 2-4 people at a full table are drunk. But, I don't try to rationalize it, I just say to myself, "Ok, self, this is a weak hand, and these are weak players. They are going to play the same whether they have me beat or not, so am I willing to lose this pot?" If I've been running well, I'll usually say yes; if I'm running poor, I'll usually say no.