Using Cloutier\'s thinking with AK
 

For small stakes NLHE, when you raise before the flop with AK, AQ, or AJs (etc) do you feel it best to typically let it go and not chase when you miss the flop completely? Either last to act and checks to you or first to act? I often read about people firing on the flop with a missed AK, prepared to slow down if called. But facing a multiway field, is this sound?

Thanks.

Re: Using Cloutier\'s thinking with AK
 

Yes it is. The less opponents who see the turn, the greater the chances of AK winning the hand.

Re: Using Cloutier\'s thinking with AK
 

Good question. The key here is to balance your stragedy. If you check raise the flop frequently with legitamate hands, opponents will be less likely to push you off when rags flop. You should also bet out in the same situation just as often to throw them off. I've seen a lot of people on Party $25NL call big preflop raises in position, just to bluff pfr off if the boards crap. Doing this will allow you to charge them as much as possible.

Re: Using Cloutier\'s thinking with AK
 

there are so many things this is dependent on so it's hard to give you a clear cut answer. this is kinda how i play a whiffed AK etc..

quick example:

2 loose limpers to you w/ AKo, you raise to 5x the big blind. blinds fold, limpers call.

flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

they both check to you... i'd make a pretty good sized bet here, maybe not the pot but close to it. its unlikely that flop hit either of them so AK might be the best hand... at the moment. you dont want to give a cheap card to somebody w/ QTo to draw out on you. i'd be prepared to slow down on the turn if you get called and don't improve.


another but this time your position is worse. you raise UTG w/ AKo to 4x the big blind. you get called by the button and the blinds fold.

flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

i'd lead out on this too w/ a good sized bet, but i'd be prepared to slow down on the turn if he calls and you don't improve.

hope this helps. also i could be off base w/ this so feel free to give me some advice if you disagree.

peace - jeff

Re: Using Cloutier\'s thinking with AK
 

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1

I had a similar discussion recently. I camo to the conclusion that if 1-2 calls, I always bet if checked to me regardless of position, when 3 calls I may bet or may not, depending on the situation. With more than 3 callers I check a missed flop.
The exception is of course if I'm up against calling stations, whom I never bluff.

Re: Using Cloutier\'s thinking with AK
 

I basically agree, but have one added suggestion.

Instead of betting out close to a pot-sized bet, I bet a half pot. I find that I still get those who completely missed the flop to fold. A half bet does not necessarily show weakness, since it could also be a trap. This way, I lose less when I get called and have to fold my hand on the turn.

Caveat, though: You also have to play your strong hands the same way since you don't want to give away a tell by betting weaker hands less than stronger hands.

Re: Using Cloutier\'s thinking with AK
 

Facing a multiway field a check is normally best due to being unlikely to win there and then with a bet. Probably bet with 2 ops or less, maybe 3. Maybe bet again on the turn, but definitely slowdown if called on the flop by player/s with high call ratios and you are unimproved.

Re: Using Cloutier\'s thinking with AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
there are so many things this is dependent on so it's hard to give you a clear cut answer. this is kinda how i play a whiffed AK etc..

quick example:

2 loose limpers to you w/ AKo, you raise to 5x the big blind. blinds fold, limpers call.

flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

they both check to you... i'd make a pretty good sized bet here, maybe not the pot but close to it. its unlikely that flop hit either of them so AK might be the best hand... at the moment. you dont want to give a cheap card to somebody w/ QTo to draw out on you. i'd be prepared to slow down on the turn if you get called and don't improve.


another but this time your position is worse. you raise UTG w/ AKo to 4x the big blind. you get called by the button and the blinds fold.

flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

i'd lead out on this too w/ a good sized bet, but i'd be prepared to slow down on the turn if he calls and you don't improve.

hope this helps. also i could be off base w/ this so feel free to give me some advice if you disagree.

peace - jeff

[/ QUOTE ]


I REALLY THINK THIS IS A GOOD POINT AND THIS IS HOW I DECIDE WHATEHER OR NOT TO FIRE AT MISSED FLOP... whos in with you also matters.

I have adopted a tight version of this tho when i miss...especially in the loose games on PP i fell i save money when not in position by check folding AK-A10 when i miss... and think others are likely to call my bet...MY POLICY IS TO VALUE BET MORE AND BLUFF LESS AT PARTY NL low max buy in tables...

HERE IS WHY...you can get called when you are behind in the hand and then are forced to either bet again or check and call or check and fold on the turn (and maybe river) and if you are always checking when you bet and get called on the missed flop you can get bluffed by draws or other big cards who called your flop bet. THE BIGGEST REASON IN MY OPINON IS THIS: If you bet at a flop like 962 rainbow, a loose player who called your PF raise with A9 suited will also call your flop bet, THEN YOU HIT YOUR ACE ON THE TURN...now you have TPTK and he has aces up...you are liable to lose a lot of money in the hand

ALL AROUND I THINK TJ is completely right...shutting down when you miss will save you money, but you cant always shut down when you miss but I suggest you only bluff at a missed flop in position and sparingly at other times. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]