08 all same suit hand
 

I understand the importance of being suited, but what about when a hand is all the same suit? How much does this detract from the hand? I am only interested in a hand that is already playable.

For example: Is it possible that A Q J 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is no longer playable in a loose game (seems still playable to me)? What about something more marginal like A Q J 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? I know it makes the hand worse for sure, but is it enough to make it not playable?

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

I tend to treat 4-flush hands like this as if they were rainbow (IOW, I just disregard the flush possibility). Whether an AQJT or A3QJ is playable anyway is, of course, dependent on your position and the type of game you're in.

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

Perfect. Thanks.

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

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what about when a hand is all the same suit? How much does this detract from the hand?

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Padge -

If you asked "How much less likely are you to make a flush with four cards in a suit as opposed to two cards in a suit?" the answer is 45%, but how much your hand goes down in value is more complex and not as severe.

After you see your hand but before you see the flop, if you have only two cards in a suit, there are eleven cards left in the pack to possibly use to get three, four, or five cards of that suit on the board.

When you have four cards of the suit in your hand, then there are only nine cards left in the pack from which to possibly end up with three, four, or five cards of that suit on the board.

There are 122562/1712304 ways for board to end up with at least three cards to a flush with two cards of that suit cards in your hand.

There are 92592/1712304 ways for board to end up with at least three cards to a flush with three cards of that suit cards in your hand.

There are 67284/1712304 ways for board to end up with at least three cards to a flush with four cards of that suit cards in your hand.

Thus the flush itself is (122562-67284)/122562 or about 45% less likely to occur for you when you have four cards of the flush suit as opposed to just two. That's figured before the flop. After the flop it would be a different answer.

But your question was "How much does this detract from your hand?" and your hand is not worth 45% less because there are other ways to win besides making a flush.

Simulated hand values go down with more cards than two in your flush draw suit(s), but how much depends on all four of your cards. If you use Wilson's simulator, there are various line-ups of opponents you can choose. Whichever different line-up you use leads to a different result for the decrease in value of your hand.

For the particular line-up I was using yesterday for a $5-$10 game,
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] earned $325681 in 10,000 trials against eight random hands, while
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] earned $285871 in 10,000 trials against eight random hands.

By contrast, A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] earned $217648 in 10,000 trials against eight random hands for the same line-up of opponents and
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] earned $151763 in 10,000 trials against eight random hands for the same line-up.

You can see that the hand with the extra card in the club suit earned less overall than the ace-suited hand with only two cards in the suit, and you can attribute the loss to the extra club in the hand (and also to the lack of a heart which would tend to block an opponent who might be drawing for a heart flush) - but the fraction of the decrease is different for this hand, and also this line-up of opponents, than the fraction of the decrease of another hand and another line-up.

You can also see that the hand with the suited ace fared better than the hand with the suited king as did the hand with three in the flush suit.

You can also see that all the hands with flush possibilities fared better than the non-suited hand.

I didn't run four suited cards, because there's no such thing for A4KK hands, but I feel reasonable certain results for four suited cards fit somewhere between the results for three suited cards and a non-suited hand (because that makes sense and that's where they've been in other simulations).

We're looking for simple answers but sometimes the answers are not simple.

There are trends, but it's difficult to put absolute values on them.

At any rate, a hand with four cards in the suit is clearly worth more than a rainbow hand. Whether it's playable or not depends on what specific four cards involved and also on your opponents.

All the hands I've listed above (all the hands in the A4KK group) are playable against the assortments of opponents I usually encounter.

As to the two specific hands you asked about, A3JQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and ATJQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], the first is better than the second, but they're both very marginal.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

without doing any of the math, i would assume that 4 flush starters are unplayable because it really does reduce the odds of catching a flush draw and hitting one as well as your outs are reduced by something like 15% (rough estimate)

side note...
also your post tite says O8 which is hi/lo, where i thought AQJT (your example) isn't that great of a hand anyways?

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

Another reason for the decreased earnings with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is that your third club blocked the second-nut club flush. I would expect to find a smaller decrease with a hand like A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

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Another reason for the decreased earnings ... is that your third club blocked the second-nut club flush.

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Chaos - Yes. Good point. Thanks.

Buzz

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

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What about something more marginal like A Q J 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ?

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I think A3JQ is a better hand than ATJQ. I think this is true whether the hands are not suited, suited, or suited with extra hearts. But none of them are that good.

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

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your post tite says O8 which is hi/lo, where i thought AQJT (your example) isn't that great of a hand anyways?


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The answer to every poker question, it all depends:
Say you are in late position in a loose game where your oppenents tend to play a lot of low cards up front and there are 4-5 limpers, knowing that the stub is rich in high cards would you rather have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], or AQJT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

Re: 08 all same suit hand
 

It's playable, but definitely not as good as a two suited hand. So you're basically trying to catch your straight.