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-   -   essence of intelligent gambling (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=129881)

Paul Phillips 09-29-2004 04:06 PM

essence of intelligent gambling
 
I can't keep up with the day-to-day posts around here but I've spotted one unprofitable trend (or profitable, depending on where you stand) that I'd like to discourage. Following sklansky's example I will post it here in the forum that is apparently attracting "bigshots" rather than wherever it properly belongs.

What is the basic principle that leads to a few people being winning gamblers and most being losers? In the end it comes down to only one thing: winners pursue bets where they have the best of it and avoid bets where they don't. This is true no matter what brand of gambling we're talking about. It can be something as simple as foregoing games of negative expectation, or as complicated as playing good poker, which in a sense is nothing more than a long series of "prop bets" where you have a degree of control over what the prop is and how much the wager will be.

Among the critical aspects of this is the ability to figure out when you're a money favorite. You can be a very successful prop bettor by refusing 99% of the bets that come your way; all you have to do is spot the 1 in a 100 where the bettor is obviously taking the worst of it. One example of where this comes up all the time is on the golf course. There are lots of guys who are dying to bet they can make a putt at even money or small odds against when their true odds of making the putt are nowhere close to that. You don't have to be a good golfer to clean up against these guys. All you have to do is accept some of the bets that they offer you.

Now I'm going to use the contents of a couple recent threads as an example of how some people are determined to go broke. Granted, I chose these example partly to make fun of the victims, but also to belabor a critical fundamental that people ignore far too often.


Someone: I say we settle this with an old fashion game of scrabble [...] The Vegas line is Paul Phillips at a 3 to 1 favorite.
Victim: I'll take that action any day and twice on Sunday, for my entire bankroll. There is simply no way that Paul would be a 3:1 favorite over me in Scrabble.


Now several people proceed to knock their grandmothers over to bet on me at that line even though I haven't said a word. As a gambler, this is the point at which the warning bells should be clanging that something is up. But no! Instead the victim goes into a tangent about the logical fallacies of her opponents, unwilling to do the minimal research necessary to objectively examine the line she has accepted. This after trying to put her entire bankroll on it.

In the age of google it takes only seconds to find out why this bet is drawing dead, but the victim would rather dig her heels in than reassess her chances. This is the moral equivalent of discovering that your wagering partner actually attended the tape-delayed game on television at the moment, the one you bet on thinking it was live; yet then doubling the bet anyway because you're so confident the home team ought to win the game.

If you aren't willing to use all the information available to you and to reassess situations as new information comes to light, then you will never be a successful gambler. Especially, if you let your ego get tied up in your betting; if you're afraid to admit your initial assessment was wrong; or if you let your desire to beat one particular person color your thinking: then you are doomed at poker and every other form of gambling. It's as big a leak as you can suffer. It is how the winners bankrupt the losers.

Here's another example. In this case rather than accepting a horrible line, the author sets one:


Victim #2: I would bet that in a large tourney most top players are more than 90% likely to double up before going bust.


Setting bad lines is an even faster way to go broke than accepting them. As david points out in that thread, if that were true it would mean most top players are required to fold aces preflop. It's even worse than that though. Aces are only 85.2% against a completely random hand. If you are 90% to double up by other means you have to fold aces even if your opponent moves all-in preflop without looking!! If top players actually followed this strategy, how long do you think it would take the "lesser" players to find a strategy to exploit them? It wouldn't be too complicated to discover.

This illusion that top players are so amazingly successful is built on the fallacy of selective memory. People see names they know at the top of the leaderboard for day two and imagine those particular ones are the top players. They rarely look at the entire list of who went out on day one, or better yet, make predictive lists of "top players" before the tournament begins and check whether 90% doubled up before going broke.

It's very dangerous to invent percentages out of thin air. I realize this is "only" a discussion board and that people are accustomed to talking out of their ass without it having any consequences. Regardless, I suggest it's an awfully bad habit for a gambler (or anyone, but especially a gambler) to have. If you instead form the habit of thinking hard about a bet before you set a line on it, you are likely to have much more success in your gambling endeavors. Including poker.

And then there is the more general principle that one should be willing to back up one's words. Inventing lines out of thin air leaves you in the unenviable position of having to either take a bad bet or admit you had no idea what you were talking about. The latter is much superior from a bankroll preservation standpoint, but better yet is to try to set a decent line in the first place.

Happy wagering...

chuddo 09-29-2004 04:16 PM

Re: essence of intelligent gambling
 
And in other news:

-The sky is blue.
-Styrofoam floats.
-Kittens are cute.
-There is absolutely nothing insightful to be found in the long-winded and meandering post made above.

SossMan 09-29-2004 04:19 PM

Re: essence of intelligent gambling
 
Unbelievably good post, Paul.


-SossMan

Paul Phillips 09-29-2004 04:27 PM

Re: essence of intelligent gambling
 
[ QUOTE ]
And in other news:

-The sky is blue.
-Styrofoam floats.
-Kittens are cute.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree with your assessment regarding its potential for earth-shattering. That doesn't mean that some people won't gain from its expression. There is ample evidence that lots of people do need to hear this again.

We make much of life vastly more complicated than it needs to be, when it's really the adherence to a few fundamentals that leads to 98% of success. Why are there a hundred poker books that say essentially the same thing? Because repetition is effective and because people respond differently to different expressions of the same principle.

[ QUOTE ]
-There is absolutely nothing insightful to be found in the long-winded and meandering post made above.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have my permission to ignore the lessons that are beneath you from now on.

chuddo 09-29-2004 04:34 PM

Re: essence of intelligent gambling
 
Not trying to be a complete dick Paul, as i enjoy reading some of your posts here and on your journal.

It is just that I found this particular thread akin to someone posting the importance of the seat belt in a motor vehicle safety forum.

An aside regarding your scrabble fondness: do you ever tool around with literati on yahoo?

Paul Phillips 09-29-2004 05:08 PM

Re: essence of intelligent gambling
 
[ QUOTE ]
It is just that I found this particular thread akin to someone posting the importance of the seat belt in a motor vehicle safety forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Students of human nature should realize that the post provided me with an excuse to continue poking fun at a certain humorless novelist for whom words are her dreary stock-in-trade. However, that doesn't mean I wasn't providing a public service by articulating the concept.

It's also a selfish effort to shame people into caring a little more about what they say, because I have an interest in higher quality gambling discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
An aside regarding your scrabble fondness: do you ever tool around with literati on yahoo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, though I've heard of it. I used to spend a sick amount of time playing scrabble at ISC but I don't play much anymore. My all-or-nothing nature prevents me from sustaining a merely healthy interest.

srblan 09-29-2004 05:24 PM

Re: essence of intelligent gambling
 
[ QUOTE ]
My all-or-nothing nature prevents me from sustaining a merely healthy interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, I wonder how many of us (poker players) are like that. I used to be the same way about chess as I am now about poker.

Easy E 09-29-2004 05:26 PM

Obvious or not, I thought it was a good post
 
and I didn't even have to flip a coin to make that decision!

bobby rooney 09-29-2004 05:29 PM

Re: essence of intelligent gambling
 
Hey Paul, good post. I have no doubt that many people overestimate the advantage that "name players" have over no-name players.

I have a related question for you that I'm curious about. How much of a favorite do you consider yourself in the average 10K tourney? 2x the buyin, 4x? Also, what do you consider an adequate bankroll for such events and do the increasingly large fields require a bigger roll? Before her TOC win, Annie Duke mentioned that she had about a 200K roll and when I heard that it seemed to me to be woefully inadequate, especially when you include travel and lodging, which might explain why she was using backers for the big events to help lower the overhead at the time. She probably doesn't need backers now, but I wonder how much she should keep in her roll and not touch? 400K maybe? How much bankroll do you keep for these events (I understand you might not want to answer that)?

Is there any way to mathematically figure out bankroll reqs for these tourneys? And other than guestimation, a way to figure out how much expectation the good players have?
Anyway, thanks in advance for any responses, and these questions aren't just for Paul if anyone else wants to give their opinions/analysis.

Boris 09-29-2004 05:30 PM

Re: essence of intelligent gambling
 
I did a google search and I'll agree that your probably a 3000:1 favorite against me in scrabble but why do you think you're such a clear favorite against the "victim" in your post?


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