A4s SB
 

30/60. Cutoff open raises. He's pretty passive for this limit and pretty loose and chasey but he doesn't need a lot to raise here. Button coldcalls. I haven't played with him before today but he likes to spew a lot of chips on the flop and take free turn cards and is all around pretty LAG. The table in general though is playing pretty close to the chest. I see the old white guy in the BB ready to call so I call for $40 in the SB with ace four of clubs.

Flop is Ad Kc 3h. Its checked to the cutoff who bets, button raises, I make it 3 bets. BB folds, CO calls 2 cold, button calls. Turn is the Th, I check and its checked around. River is the Td and I bet. Meh?

Re: A4s SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is Ad Kc 3h. Its checked to the cutoff who bets, button raises, I make it 3 bets. BB folds, CO calls 2 cold, button calls. Turn is the Th, I check and its checked around. River is the Td and I bet. Meh?

[/ QUOTE ]

You go to the trouble of representing a monster by 3-betting and don't follow through with a turn bet? Is this reverse free card? Have you check-raised the flop and turn before making them tremble in fear of you? I actually have seen it before.

This turn check is doubly bad if you intended on calling a bet.

I think you got it backwards. Bet out the turn and then check call the river.

By the action, I think it's likely they both have a K of some sort. Bah...maybe A for all chop-chop-chop...who knows?

Garland

Re: A4s SB
 

Maybe I'm too weak-tightish but i just feel like you're outkicked here. I suppose your play was definitely the cheapest way to get a showdown though, so if you're going to play it all, that's the best move.

Re: A4s SB
 

outkicked [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

as for the hand, i don't get the 3-bet. In fact, i'd probably fold it right there after the bet and raise.

I think theres a doubtful valuebet though.

On the one hand it seems unlikely after the turncheck anyone has more than an ace but perhaps you get a call by a king on the button (i wouldn't blame him to fold after 3 bets on the flop regardless of the turn check).
On the other hand theres some danger from the guy in the middle though; he could've hit a monster hoping to get maximum value in check(re?-)raising the turn. He couldn't be blamed that much for taking that shot after all the fireworks on the flop

Perhaps check-calling the river would be best here, since any ace after you has a clear valuebet (and mp probably has one at least) and you'd hate to get raised by a better hand ( a king will never ever call) you will have to call.

Ok concluding, i'd say its safe to say there is at least one ace (or better) out there, he will bet, a king will probably call, and you call.Thus [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] : No betting the river. Im sorry for this rambling, im usually just thinking outloud in these posts while im writing

Re: A4s SB
 

Given your description of the players I think 3 betting the flop is good. The button could have tons of hands you beat and so can the cutoff, once the cutoff calls two more bets he could be deciding to call down with an A, or he could be deciding to draw to his 5 outer with Kx or his 4 outer with QJ, is he chasey enough to call with something like TT? Anyway, on the turn there are so many hands these guys can have that you are beating and they will call you with that I think it's a clear bet. It looks like you were trying to see where the CO is at. If he bets the turn, then given his passive nature he most likely has you outkicked or worse. And if he checks and the LAG bets you can get in a checkraise. Since you mentioned the button likes to take free turn cards I think you have to bet the turn.

Given that the turn checked through it looks even more likely that you are ahead and your turn weakness will convince the LAG to call with probably any pair and the CO will call with most pairs. Good bet, but you should also bet the turn.

-Ezcheeze

Re: A4s SB
 

hi vehn

vehn, when you see the BB getting ready to call, that is not a reason for you to call. the BB's participation here hurts you. he does not help you out here vehn.

in fact, you shouldn't be in this thing at all. if you were up against the just the button and could drive out the BB, then you should raise or reraise the button, and try to get heads up. if there were a lot of limpers in a non-aggressive game, then you should call. but what are you doing here vehn? this is a pre-flop fold. and it's not close.

doggonit vehn. will you kindly tighten up a little in these bar fight games you're always getting into? don't you see what you're doing? bad vehn,; very bad. and in a 30-60? there's nothing civilized about a 30-60. they are going to take you're didilly Axs and knock you over the head with it, the four of them like that. muck pre-flop. dang it vehn, will you muck the stupid thing? for crying out loud!

Re: A4s SB
 

IF you bet the turn and are raised its such an easy fold I think thats definitly the best line. Nobody will ever ever raise you here without a hand that u have probably no outs against, after u check 3 bet the flop. The 10 I think is kind of a scary card. One of them could very eaisly have j10 or q10.

Re: A4s SB
 

And as to elysilum in a 2 chip 3 chip structure against players you are clearly superioir against, especialy if the old white guy might be curtis or zake, its a way easy call pre-flop. Especialy when the flop comes uncoordianted and the cutoff bets and the button folds allowing you to checkraise a fair amount of the time

Re: A4s SB
 

I dunno who the OWG was but he was real tight/passive/zero threat kinda guy, just where I want them. I probably should have bet the turn but I really didn't like my hand much after that flop action. I dunno what I was gonna do here on the turn tho if someone bet. I think I can almost definintly get away from it if I check and the cutoff bets regardless of what the button does because he'll never do that without a hand I'm not drawing to half the pot with and he'll probably always call 2 cold here on the flop with QJ. If the button bets then I'm kinda hosed I guess. Anyways when I bet the river the cutoff folded right away and I can't imagine what he had. The button called though with a king obviously, and I won the whole thing. Oh well.