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-   -   No raise pre-flop. How bad is it? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=105065)

Octopus 07-21-2004 12:38 PM

No raise pre-flop. How bad is it?
 
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks,

Flop: (8 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

River: (9 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 13 BB, between UTG+1, MP1, Button and Hero.</font>

Pre-flop: It never even occured to me while playing this hand that I should raise pre-flop, but now looking back it seems like a good choice. How bad a mistake is this?

Flop: I decided to try for a check-raise to try to move out any gutshots (or better backdoor flush draws, for that matter). Since I had no clear idea who might bet, should I have just bet out? Would anyone have 3-bet it?

Turn: I check and plan to fold.

River: I bet and plan to pay off any raises.

easypete 07-21-2004 12:54 PM

Re: No raise pre-flop. How bad is it?
 
I'm good with completing here pf. You are out of position, and have a bunch of limpers from EPs.

Bet the flop.

Big time scare card on the turn. Depending on how many stay in on the flop and the action, I may be check/calling 1 bet here.

Nice catch on river, good bet... call if you get raised (could still be beat by higher straight or a flush - flush is doubtful given the lack of betting on turn).

chief444 07-21-2004 01:04 PM

Re: No raise pre-flop. How bad is it?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm good with completing here pf. You are out of position

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I would be far more likely to raise this on the button.

[ QUOTE ]
Big time scare card on the turn. Depending on how many stay in on the flop and the action, I may be check/calling 1 bet here.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is a bit of a tricky turn. After thinking about it, I believe I'd rather lead out than either check/call or check/fold. It's unlikely anything but a flush will raise so you should be able to safely fold to a raise. This wins the most or loses the least.

dfscott 07-21-2004 01:07 PM

Re: No raise pre-flop. How bad is it?
 
I'm pretty much with easypete here. I'm not sure if I'd call a bet on the turn with all these limpers unless I was closing (or almost) closing the betting. Otherwise, I think you're fine.

RED_RAIN 07-21-2004 01:12 PM

Re: No raise pre-flop. How bad is it?
 
I'll go against the grain here.

I fold on the flop.

I don't, these are the type of pots I avoid when I'm in for it for cheap. If I'm in, I want to 3 bet it more than just call 2 cold, since if it goes bet, raise and I'm forced with 2 cold again, I'm dead money and in a hard spot again and almost for sure now behind.

chief444 07-21-2004 01:14 PM

Re: No raise pre-flop. How bad is it?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty much with easypete here. I'm not sure if I'd call a bet on the turn with all these limpers unless I was closing (or almost) closing the betting.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's why I prefer leading out. A bet could be anything. Against the majority of micro players a raise usually means you're drawing dead.

Octopus 07-21-2004 01:17 PM

Re: No raise pre-flop. How bad is it?
 
I do not see how I could call even 1 bet on the turn unless I was closing the action. Suppose it is the best case and I would close the action and everyone else called. Then I am getting 13-1 on my call. If there is no flush out there who was trying to check-raise (or had a little flush and was scared of a bigger one), then there is likely a flush draw with this many players. I assume I have only 3 outs which is 13.5-1. There is also a small chance that I will split the pot with another ten. If I do get there, I will get a couple extra bets. All in all, I would say this is pretty marginal.

If I am not closing the action, the threat of a check-raise and the lower odds turn it to a clear fold for me.


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