good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

I live in Ohio and I play about 50 hours a week online (a lot of 3/6 ring and a lot of NL SNGs). I don't play live much, though -- just the occasional home game and a trip to the Belterra now and then.

I saw in the paper the other day there was a $50 tourney at the Fraternal Order of Eagles in my home town and decided to check it out for fun. Well, there weren't many people showing up for the tourney, but they have tons of tables in the Eagles basement and they have a 3/6 and 5/10 live game down there.

So, I played the 3/6 and it stayed 8-9 handed for awhile. These people were just unbelievablely bad. For example, one hand it was 8-handed, UTG straddled, I was first to act and 3-bet with AQ. Only two people folded. The showdown was a split pot between two people who each hit a runner-runner boat with 64o.

Anyway, this would be a fun game for me to play in now and then, but I think the rake is too high. They rake 10% ($1 for every $10) up to a max of $5. Even when it's down to 3-handed they continue the full rake. I haven't heard of any games with a max rake above $4. It's not like these guys are even legitimate pro dealers. I guess I'm just used to Party's max rake of $1 with 2-3 players, $2 with 4-5 players and $3 with 6-10 players.

I was mostly wondering about the legality of the game, though. It's at the Eagles, but it's in the basement. I think the game is actually somehow associated with a local baseball card shop (that's what the credit card receipts say). It's not like this is a charity event, and people can just walk in off the street and play.

Not sure what I'm actually looking for. I don't know that I'll bother saying, "Hey, I know this is illegal, and the least you could do is cut the max rake down a buck or two." I guess I was just looking for other people's opinions, because I really have very little experience with live poker (except home games).

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

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I was mostly wondering about the legality of the game, though. It's at the Eagles, but it's in the basement. I think the game is actually somehow associated with a local baseball card shop (that's what the credit card receipts say). It's not like this is a charity event, and people can just walk in off the street and play.

Not sure what I'm actually looking for. I don't know that I'll bother saying, "Hey, I know this is illegal, and the least you could do is cut the max rake down a buck or two." I guess I was just looking for other people's opinions, because I really have very little experience with live poker (except home games).

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As your neighbor in PA, which has similar laws, this is what I think:

Poker is illegal if the house makes a profit. End of story.

With regard to what you should do: don't say anything. If this is the only good game around, there's no use saying something that is going to result in you getting uninvited.

I also considered saying something about potential dangers with criticizing illegal games, but then I reread your post and saw that it has something to do with a baseball card shop, and figured that there's no concern with a bunch of dorks kicking your ass for complaining. It's not like this is the mob.

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

According to Ohio Law, if the game is held on a non-profit organization's property (The Eagles), and the sponser (the card shop) is using the rake (after expenses) to donate to a charitable cause, then the game is legal.

The dealer's aren't paid, so that is why they are not legimate pro dealers. Since you are playing against typical people from Ohio, then yes, the play is probably really bad. Consider the high rake a entry fee to be able to play with such big fish.

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

Thanks for the responses.

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According to Ohio Law, if the game is held on a non-profit organization's property (The Eagles), and the sponser (the card shop) is using the rake (after expenses) to donate to a charitable cause, then the game is legal.

The dealer's aren't paid, so that is why they are not legimate pro dealers.

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Are you sure they can't pay the dealers? I've talked to a few people who make really good money working for non-profit groups as outside contractors, because the group isn't supposed to make money itself, but they can pay the outside people whatever's reasonable.

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

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I also considered saying something about potential dangers with criticizing illegal games, but then I reread your post and saw that it has something to do with a baseball card shop, and figured that there's no concern with a bunch of dorks kicking your ass for complaining. It's not like this is the mob.

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I don't know... The guy in charge has a striking resemblance to Big Pussy.

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

The dealer's aren't paid in the sense of a "paycheck". They probably get a cut of the rake for their services, and you would have to define "really good money". [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

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Anyway, this would be a fun game for me to play in now and then, but I think the rake is too high. They rake 10% ($1 for every $10) up to a max of $5. Even when it's down to 3-handed they continue the full rake. I haven't heard of any games with a max rake above $4.

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$5 and $6 rakes are relatively common in the midwest.

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

As a fellow Ohioan and having general knowledge of the Cleveland and Columbus poker scene, here's what I say:
Don't make a big stink whether these games are legal or not.

Yes, the games are technically legal. Are they run following the guidelines to keep them legal? No. The house cannot make a profit; the rake goes toward the charity, say some high school band or some other fundraising, non-profit group. The location, such as the FOE or American Legion or whatever has to rent the tables and equiptment from the poker group. These expenses come out of the rake, if I understand the structure correctly.

Now, as for the illegalities of all this. The poker group may get a cut of the rake, rather than having a set number for how much table rentals costs. They may also ask for a cut for the dealers. The dealers are supposed to be "volunteers," therefore NOT being paid. The same is true for tips. Dealers are not supposed to accept tips. I've seen one of these charity games get raided by the state just because of all the behind the scenes illegal stuff such as this. The poker group had a game the following week, but tipping was strictly prohibited. Just watch other people around you to see what the tip status is.

As for what "good" money is for dealing, I'd say just take a look at the people who are dealing. I somehow doubt they're wearing designer clothes and sipping on champagne at the poker hall; they're more than likely to be smoking a Misty and missing a few teeth. It pays better than working a McJob, but consider the environment they work in: low limit, smokey, borderline-legal, underground poker rooms. I'm pretty sure a college degree will make you more money than going to dealing school and working on the weekends.

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

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As for what "good" money is for dealing, I'd say just take a look at the people who are dealing. I somehow doubt they're wearing designer clothes and sipping on champagne at the poker hall; they're more than likely to be smoking a Misty and missing a few teeth. It pays better than working a McJob, but consider the environment they work in: low limit, smokey, borderline-legal, underground poker rooms. I'm pretty sure a college degree will make you more money than going to dealing school and working on the weekends.

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The dealers in Ohio (who aren't suppsoed to make anything) make a few hundred a night dealing. Most of the ones I know there have a gambling problem, a drug problem or both so no matter how much they make it isn't enough. Note: I left Ohio in 1998 so things may have changed (but when I run into someoen from the old days it hasn't).

Re: good game of questionable legality in Ohio
 

I said:

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Are you sure they can't pay the dealers? I've talked to a few people who make really good money working for non-profit groups as outside contractors, because the group isn't supposed to make money itself, but they can pay the outside people whatever's reasonable.

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I wasn't referring to dealers when I said I know people who make good money. I've talked to contractors (mostly IT work) who have done things for mid-sized non-profit groups who make legitimately good money. I was simply saying I think non-profit groups are still allowed to pay outside contractors whatever they want. It's not like the Red Cross built their whole infrastructure with just volunteers.