Am I a donkey?
 

Right now, I feel like a giant donkey. I was solidly in 2nd or 3rd in a stars 180 with about 14000 in chips. I pick up QQ in early position. I raised it 3x the blind (600) I get reraised by a LP player with a stack just under mine. He makes it 3600 to go.

I thought about calling and pushing to any undercard flop. But instead I reraised to 7500. He pushes and i insta call.

Giant pot - He of course flips over AA and when and Ace hits the flop I am dead.

In retrospect, I think this was an obvious, obvious, obvious lay down, but I just wanted to check and see if anyone else would have donkeyed it up like this? Feel free to tell me to call a whambulance.... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Ugg. I was in awesome shape to make the FT and I @(*#&@(* blew it!!

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

This is just one of those kinda hands. I would not suspect aces with such a large reraise. Most players with aces will raise 2 or 3 times your raise. Bad luck

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

You have along way to the final table. How many players were left?

When you're reraised by a sane opponenet let's assume his range is JJ to AA and AK. We might be able to add AQ and 99
and TT with some players. If his range is wide you'll win
slightly more than half the time. If he has a tighter range you're ahead of JJ, if he plays that to begin with, dead against Kings and Aces, and off the races against big
slick. I think I can make a strong case for folding although I can't remember the last time I did and everytime
I called I was staring at Aces and Kings.

Bruce

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

I think too many players put their opponents on a hand by the size of a raise or reraise. I think this is a big leak.
Good players mix their raises.

Bruce

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

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You have along way to the final table. How many players were left?

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There were 31 left. And aside from this hand, I was very much controlling my table and playing good poker. That is why I said I felt like I was in good shape to make the FT.

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I think I can make a strong case for folding although I can't remember the last time I did and everytime
I called I was staring at Aces and Kings.

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Well, it is good to know I was not alone in not laying down. The thing that drives me nuts about this hand is that I put him on three hands - AK, AA or KK. And, my first instinct was just to call him reraise of 3K and then fold if an A or a K hit the flop. Had I done this, I would still have been in good shape. But, nooooo I decided to hee haw is up and say "well, maybe I can push him off big slick" Ugg. Got to learn to listen to the voices in my head! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Oh well, thanks for the therapy session! And for the advice.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

Generally, when you have a big pair and someone has a bigger pair, you're going to lose a lot of chips.

However, I'm not sure of the value of an open raise 3x big blind with QQ. It's not enough to gain any information about a following raise (if you'd bet 1200 and then you see a massive reraise from LP, I guess you're more likely to fold, call or otherwise escape) and it's not enough to stop all manner of hands from calling and flopping something nice when, again, you've got no information.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

Why the minireraise? You are pot committed with any reraise, so why not just push? You certainly don't mind id villain folds.

Maybe the big raise was a good play by villain. He figured you had a good hand raising in early position. The big raise doesn't look like a big pair. Once hero reraises he is in for all his chips. Even if he flat calls the big reraise, there is a good chance he will bust out.

I think you would be a donk if you didn't go bust on this hand. You can't just fold QQ to a reraise. Early in a major tournament, you could fold QQ. Maybe, you could fold it based on the action, like two players allin. Unless you had a really good read, I think you go broke here.

These 180 SNG are more like tournaments than multitable SNGs. A lot of times, you will have a big stack and not cash.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

"Going all in with QQ is the same as going in with 27" in certain situations. What type of player is LP? If he's super tight, or even TAG, do you want to gamble with your QQ when you have chips in huge proportion to the blinds? What hands could he possibly have? AK, KK, AA, maybe AQ or JJ. Half of those hands don't seem like fun to me.

Even if you fold to his re-raise, you still have ~7000 to 200 BB. If you just call and get a bad feeling after the flop, you have even more chips to rebuild with. Plenty of time to re-build your stack, if you keep your cool in both scenarios.

Oh yeah, also, how have you been doing at this table? Winning small pots here and there? Think you can withstand a big fold, or do you need to gamble to stay in this?

You weren't a "donkey" here by any means. It happens. But, if you are in a great situation, do you really want to gamble with it on one hand? Or would you rather wait and outstrategize, pick on small stacks, get your money in there with better fold equity, etc. Being "committed" because you got re-raised or you have a good enough hand or this is an internet tourney is not a good enough reason to play QQ for all your chips. Still, you're not a donkey. This is a common error by many, many good players.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

You need a really good read to fold QQ to a reraise. The big reraise could easily be AQ or JJ or something trying to pick up the pot, and villain will fold to a push.

You definately can't fold QQ to a reraise in a higher buyin tournament against good players. If you do, you will get reraised every time.

You also can't fold QQ to a reraise against fishy players, because who knows what they are reraising with.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Going all in with QQ is the same as going in with 27" in certain situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...okay

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Going all in with QQ is the same as going in with 27" in certain situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...okay

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If you know the other two Queens are out, and the villain accidentally shows AA, it is about the same.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

nice juan

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

Are you saying that you should NEVER fold QQ in early position when reraised later in a tournament?

There aren't too many spots that come to my mind, but I just
hate preaching NEVER. Poker is a game of people and incomplete information, so never playing a hand one particular way can't be correct.

Bruce

Bruce

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Going all in with QQ is the same as going in with 27" in certain situations.

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ummm...okay

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If you know the other two Queens are out, and the villain accidentally shows AA, it is about the same.

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those other 2 queens that are out, did they just get up and go see a show or something?

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that you should NEVER fold QQ in early position when reraised later in a tournament?

There aren't too many spots that come to my mind, but I just
hate preaching NEVER. Poker is a game of people and incomplete information, so never playing a hand one particular way can't be correct.

Bruce

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

I said you need a pretty good read to fold them to a single reraise.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

You are certainly not a donkey for getting it all in preflop with QQ. That being said, you raised UTG, 3xBB to 600 and got popped to 3600. People say "that is not how I would play AA", but IMO this is like AA or KK pretty much all the time (assuming player is tight). You are still really deep in terms of BB and you said you think you have an edge over the table, and you're going up against one of the few people that can bust you, so I would probably let it go. Obviously if I had a read that this guy was LAG, or that he had been reraising like this a lot preflop, or if stacks are not as deep, it turns it into an easy call/push.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

It's poker. But for your comment about pushing him off AK in a $20 180 person tourney, not going to happen...you are gonna race.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

Read on LP? Hard to say without it, but at most, I'm calling his re-raise. I do not have the discipline to lay down QQ pf in this situation.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think too many players put their opponents on a hand by the size of a raise or reraise. I think this is a big leak.
Good players mix their raises.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, you raised UTG, 3xBB to 600 and got popped to 3600. People say "that is not how I would play AA", but IMO this is like AA or KK pretty much all the time (assuming player is tight).

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I kind of agree. With an initial raise to 600, a raise to 1000, 1200, or 1500, might be a big pair. But the large raise is also suspicious. Particularly with the stack sizes here, unless hero folds to the big reraise, he is likely in for all his chips.

Whenever, villain makes an unusual size bet in nay situation, you have to suspect either a very strong hand or a semibluff or bluff.

The large raise could easily also be AK or AQ trying to take the pot on a semibluff. However, that is less likely at this level of tournament, where people are less likely to fold to a reraise.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. At least I take a little solice in knowing that others would have done the same thing.

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Why the minireraise? You are pot committed with any reraise, so why not just push? You certainly don't mind if villain folds.

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Good question. I really dont have a good answer. Other than at the time, I was thinking "I need to define my hand. If he pushes to my rereraise, then he definitely has AA or KK" And then I proceeeded to ignore the information that I paid 6,000 for! BLEH!

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I think you would be a donk if you didn't go bust on this hand. You can't just fold QQ to a reraise.

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Question - even to a rerereraise? Would you still not lay it down?

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. At least I take a little solice in knowing that others would have done the same thing.

[ QUOTE ]
Why the minireraise? You are pot committed with any reraise, so why not just push? You certainly don't mind if villain folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. I really dont have a good answer. Other than at the time, I was thinking "I need to define my hand. If he pushes to my rereraise, then he definitely has AA or KK" And then I proceeeded to ignore the information that I paid 6,000 for! BLEH!

[ QUOTE ]
I think you would be a donk if you didn't go bust on this hand. You can't just fold QQ to a reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Question - even to a rerereraise? Would you still not lay it down?

[/ QUOTE ]


You have too much in to fold to villain's 4th raise. He could have AK and you could make a set if you are dominated. That is why you might as well just push.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

It's highly unlikely villian is making a play here - he'd be making a move against a stack that could hurt him, that has already shown strength and interest in this pot, and shown it UTG. I interpret his raise as saying: "if you and I are going to play a big pot we're making that decision now - i figure you have a hand so let's go - if you were just tramping around w/ a mid pair or suited connectors I'm not letting you get a cheap shot at breaking me 'cause I got a hand that I'm going to have a hard time getting away from". From his perspective a 3x raise here is problematic -you call and push the non-AK flop and then what? He gets the chance to be the donkey. I'm putting him on AA or KK - maybe QQ/JJ that he intends to fold to a push but I would have played that as a call and hoped I could break your AA/KK when my set hits - unlikely he has AK which I would either call or 3x reraise.

FWIW - if you put him on AA/KK/AK I don't think the chip EV is any better calling than pushing (I did quick manual math so I could very well be wrong) - you just increase the % of time you stay alive w/ a smaller stack versus busting out (which w/ your stack size isn't necessarily bad).

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

If the player is any good at all you have to think he can make the reraise w/ TT,JJ,AK some will do it w/ medium pairs such as 77-JJ to get information. Barring no reads I think your equity is good enough against JJ+,AK.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

It is really important to have been watching the players. You get a very wide range of play in these 180 person tourneys. In some cases it is correct to get it all in with your QQ in this situation and, in other cases, it is correct to fold.

Now, my experience in these tourneys is , AK is more likely to call or push than reraise like this guy did. Pairs smaller than J's usually fold, call, or push. In general, I think the reraise here is spells trouble and you do better in the long run by folding unless you have a read that the person will make this move with a significanlty wider range of hands than AA, KK, and possibly AK.

If your stack were smaller, of course you need to get all in. But your stack is big enough that folding here leaves you in good shape.

So, in summary, unless you have reads that tell you otherwise, I think folding here has the best long term result for you against the typical opponents at the 180 sng tournaments.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

My general rule of thumb with QQ is that if I get re-raised preflop, I will simply call (unless it's a push, then I gotta think about that one a bit more). It depends on what reads I have on villain.

But with absolutely zero reads on villain and with EP, I usually just call the re-raise and hope for a good flop. If an A or K comes down, I check and I'm pretty quick to fold to a big bet. If it's lower cards, I will make a large bet and see what happens from there.

By simply calling the re-raise preflop, it gives me an opportunity to gain a little more information about villain's hand when the flop comes down, and I might avoid busting out to AA or KK or even AK. And like someone else already said, you're NOT going to force most players off AK by pushing pre-flop. Which is another reason it's a good idea to see the flop before making any major moves.

But no one can call you a donk for getting busted with QQ against AA late in the tourney like that.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

Pocket queens are a very tricky hand. I like your take on them, that's how I play them. But normally I like to raise even when I see an overcard on the flop to see how the other guy acts. If he's weak, I'll push all in dark before the turn cards to scare the sh%t out of him.

Re: Am I a donkey?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My general rule of thumb with QQ is that if I get re-raised preflop, I will simply call (unless it's a push, then I gotta think about that one a bit more). It depends on what reads I have on villain.

But with absolutely zero reads on villain and with EP, I usually just call the re-raise and hope for a good flop. If an A or K comes down, I check and I'm pretty quick to fold to a big bet. If it's lower cards, I will make a large bet and see what happens from there.

By simply calling the re-raise preflop, it gives me an opportunity to gain a little more information about villain's hand when the flop comes down, and I might avoid busting out to AA or KK or even AK. And like someone else already said, you're NOT going to force most players off AK by pushing pre-flop. Which is another reason it's a good idea to see the flop before making any major moves.


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Precisely. This is exactly how I was thinking I should have played it.

Thanks again all!