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-   -   2+2 + 2+2 + 2+2 = ??? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=36832)

J.A.Sucker 06-12-2003 12:27 PM

2+2 + 2+2 + 2+2 = ???
 
Here's a hand from a 15-30 game that I played last night, along with two other 2 + 2 er's. The game was still OK, despite the presence of these guys.

I'm UTG with QQ and raise in an 8 handed game, since somebody is smoking. Terrible player calls from near the button. Ulysses cold calls from the button. SB folds, and the BB is the one-and-only, 2+2 (counter)cultural icon, Tommy Angelo, who stopped by to play a bit last night (it was good to see you, Tommy). Anyways, Tommy 3 bets. I call, as does everybody else.

Flop: Tommy bets dark. Cards then come out, J-J-5. I raise. Bad player folds, Ulysses calls. Tommy calls.

Turn: 3, or some other blank. Tommy checks, I bet, Ulysses folds, Tommy calls.

River: Blank (2). Tommy bets. I call.

I will post my thoughts on all streets later, but it would be cool to get the other poster's thoughts, too. Tommy & Ulysses, if you weren't thinking, then just make something up [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Diplomat 06-12-2003 12:49 PM

Re: 2+2 + 2+2 + 2+2 = ???
 
I think the results are obvious. Tommy has 46s and bet his straight for value on the river. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Seriously though, I think there is a good chance that you and Tommy chopped this one up, or you got beat by kings. I doubt he has a jack -- unless he has JJ -- but I'd rule that out pretty quick. I'd worry when Ulysses cold-calls your flop bet, but still bet the turn and maybe fold to a raise.

Thinking for Tommy (ahem...or as I would, if I were in Tommy's position) and had any of AA, KK, QQ, TT, 99 (but particularly QQ and KK) -- You just called my three-bet. You might have a pair, but you are more likely to have big cards. Let's bet in the dark and see what turns up on the flop. (bet/raise/cold-call) All right, I could be in trouble. But would JA open raise with a jack from that position? And would Ulysses cold-call pre-flop with a jack in his hand? Hrrm. Call.

Turn x. If I bet he will fold overcards, and maybe raise with AA or KK. If I check-call though, I may get another bet from AK or AQ, or a smaller pair than mine, and I still don't know where Ulysses is at. (check/bet/fold). Ok, that's good. Me and JA. I call.

River x. If I check he may give up and check behind. I doublt he would keep betting overcards after my actions on the previous streets. However, he probably will call with all sorts of pocket pairs because the size of the pot, but he may not bet a pocket pair less than jacks. I'll bet. If he raises I've got a new problem, but folding might be in order.

How's that sound Tommy?

-Diplomat

(sorry if you were looking for just Tommy and Ulysses to post JA...just could not pass the chance to role-play. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img])

elysium 06-12-2003 02:44 PM

Re: 2+2 + 2+2 + 2+2 = ???
 
hi JA
tommy has TT here. you must raise the river.

Ulysses 06-12-2003 02:51 PM

Thoughts
 
I'm UTG with QQ and raise in an 8 handed game
Sucker is raising UTG. Hmmmm... He must have a pair or two big cards. I hope I have a big hand. Why have I been here for 20 hours? Everyone's folding. Nice. Let's see what I have. Sweet, a pocket pair (I think 8s or 9s). I'm going to 3-bet.

Terrible player calls from near the button.
Dammit. Now if I 3-bet Sucker is going to 4-bet. Caller in the middle isn't going anywhere. I'm screwed if any big cards show up on the flop. I think I am going to eat after all. Maybe the Korean BBQ ribs special. That sounds pretty good. I think I probably have the best hand right now, but I guess I'll just stick w/ the minimum investment here and see what happens on the flop.

Anyways, Tommy 3 bets. I call, as does everybody else.
Tommy 3-bet? Dammit. I wonder if he has AKs or a big pocket pair. Or maybe he's just screwing around. Is this action or the illusion of action? These decisions sure were easier to make 17 hours ago. Sucker didn't 4-bet. Nice, he doesn't have a really big pocket pair. (Oops.)

Flop: Tommy bets dark. Cards then come out, J-J-5. I raise. Bad player folds, Ulysses calls. Tommy calls.
Dark bet? WTF? I've seen him do that w/ both AK and big pairs now. Hmmmm.... Sucker raises. He always raises the flop. What would I do if I had a Jack? I'd probably cold-call here and hope Tommy 3-bets. But maybe I'd 3-bet to make them think I don't have a Jack. I wonder what they think I'd do. Well, if I cold-call and they have just overcards, I don't think they'll fire again on the turn. If checked to on the turn (or I hit my 8), I'm going to bet and take it down.

Turn: 3, or some other blank. Tommy checks, I bet, Ulysses folds, Tommy calls.
Oh, Sucker did have a big pocket pair. Dammit.

River: Blank (2). Tommy bets. I call.
I can't believe I put in so much money w/ the worst hand. Damn button.

J.A.Sucker 06-12-2003 05:44 PM

One Sucker\'s Thoughts...
 
I'm UTG with QQ and raise in an 8 handed game, since somebody is smoking. Terrible player calls from near the button. Ulysses cold calls from the button. SB folds, and the BB is the one-and-only, 2+2 (counter)cultural icon, Tommy Angelo, who stopped by to play a bit last night (it was good to see you, Tommy). Anyways, Tommy 3 bets. I call, as does everybody else.

I put Ulysses on a pair between 88 and TT. Maybe AQs, but I had QQ, so not as likely. I liked my hand vs him. Poor player is meaningless at this point, and just dead money. When Tommy 3 bet, I felt a little ill about my QQ. I was about positive he had AK, AA, or KK. He knows that I won't screw around here, and I know that he won't get out of line in this situation. I didn't 4 bet, because I really thought I was behind. If I'm not behind and I get a flop that I like, then I will raise Tommy's auto-bet and clear out the field.

Flop: Tommy bets dark. Cards then come out, J-J-5. I raise. Bad player folds, Ulysses calls. Tommy calls

Tommy betting dark means the same thing as the preflop 3 bet from the BB; AK, AA, or KK. This is about as good a flop without a Q that I could hope for, since JJ is now much more unlikely, so I'll stay with my gameplan and raise. Let's clear out the field and hope Tommy has AK. Ulysses called, which was interesting. I was a little fearful of AJs, but you don't win by being scared.

Turn: 3, or some other blank. Tommy checks, I bet, Ulysses folds, Tommy calls.

Tommy's check is interesting here. I'll bet, and fold out Ulysses if he doesn't have a J... good he folded. Tommy's just calling. Damn. I don't like this at all, but the pot's big enough that he'll see the river with AK.

River: Blank (2). Tommy bets. I call.

When Tommy bet out, I knew he had me beat with either AA or KK. I really wanted to muck it there, as there was little chance that I was any good, but I made the crying call, and he showed AA. I wanted to check the river behind him, and he played it very well by betting out. Ni han, Tommy.

andyfox 06-12-2003 05:49 PM

12
 
I raise UTG and Tommy 3-bets from the big blind and now he bets the flop and I raise and he calls. Uh-oh. UH-OH! I need another Queen pronto or I'm done with it.

Tommy Angelo 06-12-2003 10:00 PM

Re: 2+2 + 2+2 + 2+2 = ???
 
"Thinking for Tommy ..."

Please, by all means, do. Your post is spookily dead on. Especially this part:

"[On the turn] ... I still don't know where Ulysses is at. (check/bet/fold). Ok, that's good."

And even more so this:

"[on the river] If I check he may give up and check behind. I doubt he would keep betting overcards after my actions on the previous streets. However, he probably will call with all sorts of pocket pairs because the size of the pot, but he may not bet a pocket pair less than jacks. I'll bet. If he raises I've got a new problem, but folding might be in order. How's that sound Tommy?"

Like sweet music.

Tommy


Tommy Angelo 06-12-2003 10:17 PM

Re: Thoughts
 
"Tommy 3-bet? Dammit. ... Is this action or the illusion of action?"

Of course I would never do this to either one you guys but this morning right when the game filled up with players ready to play good until their third flop, a guy openraised from the cutoff. I think he is somebody who thinks and rightly so that I don't do much goofy stuff from the blinds. The button folded. I was in the the small blind. I looked left.

The big blind was folding for sure.

I got to thinking after the hand that you'd think it'd make sense to raise from the small blind LESS often if you know the big blind is folding, because you don't need to apply two bet pressure to make his live money into dead. But actually, I kinda like reraising more often here because I get to show some extra implied power for free. I know the big blind is folding, but maybe the initial raiser didn't watch.

I looked down to see K-9 of diamonds. I made it three bets. The big blind folded. The cutoff called. I bet the flop in the dark.

The board was all raggy. He called the flop bet. On the turn, I didn't like it. I checked, ready to fold. He checked. The river, I checked, he checked.

How much is it worth to have a guy not reraise preflop, and then not raise you on the flop, and then check behind on the turn and river, with AK? That's what he had. AK. Chaching! That's what I was thinking. The only bad news was that I did turn my hand over at the end on the off change that the guy had QJ. I think I'll go back to the AA, KK, QQ, AK plan for a while.

Tommy


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