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-   -   Curtains: flop decision (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=405886)

jb9 12-27-2005 03:52 PM

Re: Curtains: flop decision
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you bet the pot and then fold to a reraise all-in, isn't it a large -EV situation? I think i'd have to reluctantly call, which is why I'd hate to allow the situation to occur.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is a large -EV situation. If you assume the re-raise has a reasonable chance of meaning he has 2 pair or better, it's borderline, and I would reluctantly fold.

If I couldn't fold here, I would check behind.

But, in some ways checking behind just seems like avoiding a potentially tough decision and giving in to the big stack. We are afraid of the re-raise all in on the flop when it would create a difficult, borderline decision, so we check and get to the turn where the decision will probably be much simpler.

If the big stack is going to be a bully and force everyone to play any hand for their entire stack, this is valuable information to have, and now is as a good a time as any to find out.

I understand the reasoning for checking being a good (perhaps the best) play for this hand, but there is still a lot of poker to be played before this tournament is decided and I like the idea of finding out something about the big stack.

Will he call from his blind then check/fold a not too scary flop for a standard continuation bet?

Also, I hate the idea of raising preflop, checking behind on the flop, and folding to a bet on the turn. If that happens, I'm basically saying "I'm afraid of your stack and if you don't fold to my preflop bets I will only bet when I hit the flop so rest assured you always know what I'm holding".

boogiemang 12-27-2005 04:03 PM

Re: Curtains: flop decision
 
i check behind and take a free card

ravensfan 12-27-2005 07:28 PM

Re: Curtains: flop decision
 


[/ QUOTE ]
If the big stack is going to be a bully and force everyone to play any hand for their entire stack, this is valuable information to have, and now is as a good a time as any to find out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather find out with someone else's $400. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I definitely love your point about playing poker and getting some information on big stack, but with a drawing hand this good, in position, i'd like to play it for free. With nothing, such as QQ on a AKK flop, i don't mind c-betting, b/c i'm either winning or losing already and there's hardly any draws, and i can still find out something about villain. Besides, maybe you want him to find something out about you: that you don't fold bets to him (if he reraises AI) and that you'll slowplay occassionally - like when you hit the nut flush and call him down. This might make it tougher for the table to bet into you in the future.
Well, I think it's clearly -EV to fold if he c-raises AI with an overpair: given the number of chips in the pot (with a $400 bet there'd be what $1500 already? so you're risking basically $2000 to take $5500), and the fact that you're EV is +$750ish.

Given two pair, you still have basically 9 outs, or 1/3 chance of winning, and you're getting pretty close to proper odds on this anyways, but you're only -170ish EV.

I don't think it's that easy to conclude that he'll always push only with 2 pair, I can see him easily pushing with overpair can't he? If his only hand-range for pushing is AA, 2 pair, or set, then i agree you have to lay this down. In which case, it makes sense to bet b/c he'll almost never have that and you'll take the pot a high % of times.

I guess we just disagree on villain's pushing range.

ilya 12-27-2005 07:34 PM

Re: Curtains: flop decision
 
With these stacks I would check behind. I have a ton of equity but despite the hugeness of my draw I don't want to commit myself on the flop. I also really don't want to fold to a check-raise.

bennies 12-27-2005 07:41 PM

Re: Curtains: flop decision
 
[ QUOTE ]
With these stacks I would check behind. I have a ton of equity but despite the hugeness of my draw I don't want to commit myself on the flop. I also really don't want to fold to a check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

jb9 12-27-2005 08:01 PM

Re: Curtains: flop decision
 
[ QUOTE ]
you're risking basically $2000 to take $5500

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, unless work has completely destroyed my brain (a distinct possibility) I think calling the all in would be $2000 to win $3000, so it is fairly close, especially since a certain % of the time the A and T outs are no good.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess we just disagree on villain's pushing range.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I'm not too concerned about what he's pushing here, because I'm not calling any of it.

But I see your point about letting someone else burn chips getting info on the big stack and checking to the turn. Playing cautiously against the big stack is not a bad idea and will keep us nicely positioned to money in the tournament whether we hit our draw or not.

45suited 12-28-2005 01:06 AM

RESULTS
 
PartyPoker, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1045)
UTG+1 (t955)
Hero (t2670)
CO (t905)
Button (t760)
SB (t550)
BB (t3115)

Preflop: Hero is in MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t275</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, BB calls t175

Flop: (t600) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, HERO CHECKS

Turn: (t600) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">BB bets t325</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t800</font>, BB calls t475

River: (t2200) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets t700</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>

bennies 12-28-2005 05:39 AM

Re: RESULTS
 
Interesting. Usually I like a standard slowplay when I hit the nuts - calling the turn and raising the river. But on this board I think I understand the point in raising the turn. This way Hero charges Villain for a draw and gives him a better chance to commit all his chips with a made straight/set.

12-28-2005 11:33 AM

Re: RESULTS
 
When I read this question my immediate thought was "bet 400." The more posts I read from the better players here, the more I think I need to slow the f*ck down. I definitely play too fast too often and fail to protect my chip stack in dangerous situations.


Great post. I learned a lot.

ravensfan 12-28-2005 04:30 PM

Re: RESULTS
 
Just a guess, but at this level a smooth call is scarier than an actual reraise... if villain had flush, maybe he'd suspect that the re-raise was to try to take pot?
I really don't have that slightest idea about the 215s, but that's my hunch... That and my impression is that the hero is very agro, so his raise might not mean the same as a regular raise??!

Oh well, was a great post. Thanks 45s, great to see how it all played out.


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