Time to wave the white flag?
 

From an online game the other day:

Three limpers, I complete the SB with Jc Ts. BB checks.

Flop is Qs Th 9h. Checked around to the button, who bets. Button is pretty straightforward, with two notable tendancies: 1. Hates to see flops checked around. 2. Loves to bet draws.
Anyway, I checkraise, get one coldcaller, and the button calls.

Turn is the worst card in the deck: [Qh] Qs Th 9h.

Is a check-fold automatic here?

Re: Time to wave the white flag?
 

If its wrong, it certainly isn't very wrong. I think the guy you need to worry about is the coldcaller. Generally the coldcall on the flop screems draw so he likely hit his flush, even if he wasn't on the flush, he very well may be sharing that straight draw with you so you would just be chopping the pot if it hits and there isn't a flush. I'd save the chips for a better hand I think.

Re: Time to wave the white flag?
 

I don't like the check-raise here with what may be a thin drawing hand, I prefer to lead out/check-call with middle pair and a possible thin draw rather than check-raise and try to drive people out.

I would check-fold here, a bet on the flop given the coldcaller probably means you are behind and possibly drawing very thin.

Re: Time to wave the white flag?
 

"I don't like the check-raise here with what may be a thin drawing hand, I prefer to lead out/check-call with middle pair and a possible thin draw rather than check-raise and try to drive people out."

--I disagree, but would love to hear some more thoughts on this. My checkraise was because there was a decent chance I held the top hand. I wouldn't be surprised if I knocked out a king and/or an 8 (QT9 board), adding the Jacks to my potential outs if needed.

FWIW, if the bet had come from anyone else, or if this guy was not on the button, I would have played the hand differently.

Re: Time to wave the white flag?
 

Actually, J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] would be the worst card in the deck for you. Folding would be a tougher decision and more hands would have you beat, even if you drew out to the str8.

Check-fold is reasonable but not automatic. You have to have a better feeling about whether or not the flush is there. If it isn't, you have 8 outs (six clean to the str8 and the two remaining Ts - I doubt there's a Q out there).

Re: Time to wave the white flag?
 

Based on your description of the button, I like the check-raise on the flop. You may get heads up with a player who was looking for a free card on the turn wih his bet. It didn't drive anyone out and a terrible turn card came up, but I still think it was right.

Re: Time to wave the white flag?
 

"Actually, Jh would be the worst card in the deck for you. Folding would be a tougher decision and more hands would have you beat, even if you drew out to the str8."

--Good point in that it would be tougher to fold. The thing with the Jack is that I would suddenly have 4 outs to a decent boat. The Qh just jumps out as garbage to me since there is such a high probability that I'm drawing stone dead.

Re: Time to wave the white flag?
 

I like the check raise a lot, actually, especially since the button is a habitual bettor. First of all, you now know a lot more about the cold caller's hand. Second, it's just a good move to make against a guy who loves his button too much [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

The turn card is definitely not great, but it's not the worst card. I nominate Ah or Jh for that. The other two players probably now put you on trip Qs with a weak kicker. To be honest, sometimes (a third of the time?) I would lead bet that turn and hope to take the pot right there -- I would do this especially if I haven't been in too many pots. (Disclaimer: see in "Overconfidence" thread that I feel I have been overplaying my hands lately [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ) MP might have been cold calling on a straight draw. Button could have nothing at all, maybe just A-high. Button could even have a hand like AT, KT, or JT which he might now fold. If I get called on the turn, I would definitely check the river (unless it's a 3rd Q). If I get raised on the turn by either player, then my white flag comes out.

If I have been playing my chips a lot -- which I tend to do at LL online -- I would check and fold to a bet, assuming it comes from MP. If the bet came from the button, I'd probably still fold since you said he will bet his draws.

Edited because I also wanted to mention -- I probably would have lead-bet the flop. I have a pretty good hand and I need to do stuff like this else people realize I am "always" betting top pair or better.

rh

results and comment
 

"To be honest, sometimes (a third of the time?) I would lead bet that turn and hope to take the pot right there... MP might have been cold calling on a straight draw. Button could have nothing at all, maybe just A-high. Button could even have a hand like AT, KT, or JT which he might now fold. If I get called on the turn, I would definitely check the river (unless it's a 3rd Q)."

--I was waiting for someone to mention this line of thought, as it's exactly what I did. I bet, the cold-caller folded, and the button raised. Despite his aggressive tendencies on the flop, I gave him credit for a hand better than JT and mucked.

It's certainly not my default play in this situation, but it seemed reasonable enough at the time.

Re: Time to wave the white flag?
 

How is the J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] the worst card to hit the board? It gives you two pair and adds 4 outs to a house to your hand. also remember with two opponents neither may have the flush. You also have 8 outs to the straight (six clean) to anyone trying to play top pair or a set. It seems you have some good drawing possibilities here.

If the J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] hit, would check-call to the river be that bad a play?

-Scott