NYC - BPC Club raided
 

They had their big $300 tourny, dealers arrested [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

It'll stop when sensible laws are made.... which will be never, because the government makes too much money from seizures and fines.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

hasnt this place already been raided?

if so, (im not 100% sure), theyre not too bright, and cant really complain.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

again damit this sucks.

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gain, someone please PM me with the info.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

Until I am proven wrong, I am choosing to believe that this is incident is seperate from anything that happens in Manhattan. Different precincts, different boros, bridges to cross, etc.

Still, not good. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

The club is the only one of the clubs in NYC that has been fighting the case...and will continue to fight the case from the word outside after the raid. The police came in guns out screaming that they would "blow people's heads off" Another example of a clean game being persecuted in NYC. If you want to show your support you can show up at Brooklyn Central Booking today to see the arraignment and voice your opinion...

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

To any players that were at the club - The last round of summonses were summarily dismissed. Just plead not guilty. I would also recommend to anyone that was there to call Internal Affairs and make complaints about the conduct of the police at the scene. One of the fastest way to make the cops understand that this will not be tolerated is to hit them in THEIR pockets...a cop who acts like that WILL lose days of pay for those actions and face possible demotion from his unit or rank...
65 Players in that tournament would make quite a stink if all banded together...
I heard similiar stories from the Playstation raid...

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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To any players that were at the club - The last round of summonses were summarily dismissed. Just plead not guilty. I would also recommend to anyone that was there to call Internal Affairs and make complaints about the conduct of the police at the scene. One of the fastest way to make the cops understand that this will not be tolerated is to hit them in THEIR pockets...a cop who acts like that WILL lose days of pay for those actions and face possible demotion from his unit or rank...
65 Players in that tournament would make quite a stink if all banded together...
I heard similiar stories from the Playstation raid...

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If the cops executing the search warrant did in fact threaten to "blow peoples' heads off", then IAD complaints should be lodged. And you're right, it will get their attention in a hurry.
I was at Playstation when it was raided. The cops in that raid acted in a very professional manner.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

There was NO searchwarrant...they claimed they had probable cause and they DID come in guns waving and claim that they were going to "blow peoples heads off"

I was told that the attitude was similiar at one of the two manhattan raids...guns out, where players initially thought it was a robbery. That was the scene in Brooklyn - players thought it was a robbery in progress. The Civilian Complain Review Board should be called in this case as well as in the Playstation and NYPC raids...the money confiscated was player property and as far as i know not one single voucher was given to any player for THEIR property....it the cops want to claim a rake was taken (which we all know is not true) then only the rake is criminal evidence...

It is time for NYC poker players to stand up for themselves...this is just the latest injustice

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

The officer in questions name was Kwan or Quan (rhymed with swan) if anyone wants to file complaints...

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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I was told that the attitude was similiar at one of the two manhattan raids...guns out, where players initially thought it was a robbery. That was the scene in Brooklyn - players thought it was a robbery in progress.

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While realizing that very few NYC citizens carry firearms due to the draconian anti-gun legislation in that city; if any of the players had been in possession of firearms, would there have been much chance they might have shot at the police, thinking they were robbers?

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

i think NWA put it best...

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the number of players that said that exact thing about the police being lucky that no one was carrying was quite large. the police came through the door screaming with no id out and was quite lucky

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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the number of players that said that exact thing about the police being lucky that no one was carrying was quite large. the police came through the door screaming with no id out and was quite lucky

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I spoke to two players one of which is a dealer at the club. Both said that they thought they were getting robbed when the first cop came in. Pretty crazy if you ask me.

Durs

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

These poker games are illegal, right? If so, I don't really feel sorry for any player, dealer, club member, etc. who got arrested. Don't break the law (no matter how frivolous or unjust you may view it) and you won't get a gun waved in your face. This isn't a great social injustice being perpetrated by the NYPD.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

Illegal? Well what aspect? Playing in the game isn't. Owning the room in which the games is occuring is. Dealing the game may or may not be.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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Illegal? Well what aspect? Playing in the game isn't. Owning the room in which the games is occuring is. Dealing the game may or may not be.

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It's not illegal to play? Well, OK. If this is true (which it very well may be), then it sucks that people are getting hassled.

However, if you are playing in a game that is apparently not supposed to be happening (as evidenced by the illegality of owning a poker room and the numerous police raids of various clubs) then you shouldn't be surprised that the cops are hassling you. It seems odd to me that so many people seem to be in such an uproar over something like this. It's unfortunate that the cops don't understand or care about the fairly subtle nuances and grey areas of gambling laws in NYC. But I would figure most players would have figured this out by now, and adjusted their attitudes accordingly. When you step in that room, you are taking a risk of being nailed by the cops and having your money seized. That seems to be the reality of the situation, like it or not. If you don't like that risk, don't take it.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

It seems to me that some people that don't live here or play here don't understand the "nuances". Poker is a game of skill. Just like bridge or pool or golf or bowling. All of these activities (and many more) ask that you pay to play them. A bowling alley takes no extra or less if you score a 300 or roll 10 gutter balls and niether do the clubs. And to follow the point of what is and is not illegal...if it is not illegal to play then why is the players money being taken? That is a constitutional issue of illegal search and seizure...

As for the stupidity of claiming that poker players deserve to have guns waived in their faces...i leave that to others to comment on

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

I continually hear the "playing is not illegal" arguement that is supposed to make us all feel better about playing. The truth of the matter is that if it is not illegal to play the game then the game is not illegal. Read that again to make sure you read it right. It sounds simple and it is but so many people don't get it (including the police - if the police continue to set an example but not arresting players then THEY are saying that the game is NOT illegal) Then hosting the game is not illegal. It is not illegal to host a legal activity. People seem to want to say this over and over that only the owners/operaters are breaking the law but that is similiar to saying only drug dealers are breaking the law. GAMBLING is illegal. The biggest point to get across to people is that POKER IS NOT GAMBLING, it is a game of skill just as bridge and other games have been determined to be games of skill in NYC and as poker has been deemed in other parts of the country and so owning a club is not illegal. The clubs have no interest in who wins - no extra value if you bet a billion dollars or 20 cents...the point of the club is to provide a safe place to play where a common set of rules is followed to avoid conflicts...

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

isn't it illegal to profit from hosting the games though? that's always been my layman's understanding of it.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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I continually hear the "playing is not illegal" arguement that is supposed to make us all feel better about playing. The truth of the matter is that if it is not illegal to play the game then the game is not illegal. Read that again to make sure you read it right. It sounds simple and it is but so many people don't get it (including the police - if the police continue to set an example but not arresting players then THEY are saying that the game is NOT illegal) Then hosting the game is not illegal. It is not illegal to host a legal activity. People seem to want to say this over and over that only the owners/operaters are breaking the law but that is similiar to saying only drug dealers are breaking the law. GAMBLING is illegal. The biggest point to get across to people is that POKER IS NOT GAMBLING, it is a game of skill just as bridge and other games have been determined to be games of skill in NYC and as poker has been deemed in other parts of the country and so owning a club is not illegal. The clubs have no interest in who wins - no extra value if you bet a billion dollars or 20 cents...the point of the club is to provide a safe place to play where a common set of rules is followed to avoid conflicts...

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This is so wrong for so many reasons. Do call a lawyer.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

Yes, despite the fact that it may not make logical sense, or correspond with our understanding of what is "fair" or "just." Playing the game is legal, hosting it/profiting from this legal activity is not. For other "non-gambling" activities, like bowling or pool, profiting from these venues is legal, because bowling is not considered gambling, while poker is (again, you may diasgree, but this is the way laws in NY consider the matter).

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It is not illegal to host a legal activity.

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This is so wrong for so many reasons. Do call a lawyer.

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Agreed. For the sake of NYC poker please don't present this argument in court.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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GAMBLING is illegal. The biggest point to get across to people is that POKER IS NOT GAMBLING, it is a game of skill just as bridge and other games have been determined to be games of skill in NYC and as poker has been deemed in other parts of the country and so owning a club is not illegal.

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HAHAHA.. I just love these idiotic posts... here ye... here ye.. "POKER IS NOT GAMBLING"!! Are you kidding me? Lets see... I can play a chess master 100,000 times in a row and I will have NO chance of winning even a SINGLE game because I SUCK at chess. I have NO SKILL in regards to chess. That is a game of skill and you have 100% control of whether you win, lose, or draw. Poker is NOT this way! Ever have a hit his ONE-outer on the river? Ever lose to someone with NO skill? If poker is ALL skill then this would never be the case. Is that not luck? This my friend, is what gambling is about. Yes, there is much skill involved in poker and you will see it over the long run, but if poker was not gambling, there would be no bad beat stories for use to enjoy in these forums [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]. Players only have control over their actions, not what the board brings them or what cards they are dealt. Using your logic, black jack is not gambling either right?

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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GAMBLING is illegal. The biggest point to get across to people is that POKER IS NOT GAMBLING, it is a game of skill just as bridge and other games have been determined to be games of skill in NYC and as poker has been deemed in other parts of the country and so owning a club is not illegal.

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HAHAHA.. I just love these idiotic posts... here ye... here ye.. "POKER IS NOT GAMBLING"!! Are you kidding me? Lets see... I can play a chess master 100,000 times in a row and I will have NO chance of winning even a SINGLE game because I SUCK at chess. I have NO SKILL in regards to chess. That is a game of skill and you have 100% control of whether you win, lose, or draw. Poker is NOT this way! Ever have a hit his ONE-outer on the river? Ever lose to someone with NO skill? If poker is ALL skill then this would never be the case. Is that not luck? This my friend, is what gambling is about. Yes, there is much skill involved in poker and you will see it over the long run, but if poker was not gambling, there would be no bad beat stories for use to enjoy in these forums [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]. Players only have control over their actions, not what the board brings them or what cards they are dealt. Using your logic, black jack is not gambling either right?

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This idiotic rant aside, poker pretty clearly fits the definition of gambling in the New York state constitution.

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

does a skilled player win bridge every time?
then why is bridge LEGAL?

go ahead and explain that to me

the answer is that rich people that voted and cared to make a stink used their influence...

keep your mouths closed and save up gas money to go to ac and foxwoods because it's only a matter of time before every club in the city is closed...

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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does a skilled player win bridge every time?
then why is bridge LEGAL?

go ahead and explain that to me

the answer is that rich people that voted and cared to make a stink used their influence...

keep your mouths closed and save up gas money to go to ac and foxwoods because it's only a matter of time before every club in the city is closed...

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Dude, chill. I'm not arguing whether the law is good or bad, just that it exists. People that try to argue that poker is a game of skill and therefore legal really should read the New York state constituion, which pretty clearly lays out what can be considered gambling and hence made illegal.

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does a skilled player win bridge every time?
then why is bridge LEGAL?

go ahead and explain that to me


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If a skilled bridge player played against my 4 y/o they would win everytime! But the same can not be said for poker.. Do you see why?

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

The end result will be the destruction of the NYC poker community as it now exists...feel free to continue to bob and weave and ignore the fact that what we are doing is NOT illegal...there is no house advantage as noted in the law.
One way or the other if people don't care enough to stand up for themselves then this will be an ongoing issue as a bully (the city, NYPD) loves nothing more than weakness. The main issue to me, even moreso than the legality of the clubs is the legality of the police stealing (yes - stealing) the players money. If no arrests of players are made then why take their money? By not arresting them then you are saying what they are doing is legal. By saying they are doing something legal you are saying that their money is NOT evidence of crime...

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

every summons should have had a voucher for YOUR 300 with it. Only the 30 entry belonged to the club...ther rest is your money.
Call the 72nd PCT, Brooklyn South Vice, or CCRB (either google it or look below) and ask for a voucher for your money

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

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The end result will be the destruction of the NYC poker community as it now exists...feel free to continue to bob and weave and ignore the fact that what we are doing is NOT illegal...there is no house advantage as noted in the law.
One way or the other if people don't care enough to stand up for themselves then this will be an ongoing issue as a bully (the city, NYPD) loves nothing more than weakness. The main issue to me, even moreso than the legality of the clubs is the legality of the police stealing (yes - stealing) the players money. If no arrests of players are made then why take their money? By not arresting them then you are saying what they are doing is legal. By saying they are doing something legal you are saying that their money is NOT evidence of crime...

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I really hope you didn't pay for your legal education because if you did you seriously got ripped off. Have you even bothered to attempt to read the laws you claim to know so much about?

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It'll stop when sensible laws are made.... which will be never, because the government makes too much money from seizures and fines.

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This is a retarded post with complete bs claims.

They would make much more by taxing the [censored] out of the cardrooms, then the pennys they make off the tourts and fines

Re: NYC - BPC Club raided
 

Careful whom you call idiot. A 4 year old can beat the best backgammon player in the world in one game, but that did not stop the New York State courts from deciding that betting on backgammon is NOT illegal gambling under the NYS constitution. The issue is whether the game is PREDOMINANTLY one of skill or luck, and if New York follows California, poker will be ruled a game of skill--predominantly, not completely.

Reading the on-line version of the NYS Constitution linked above, I find no definition of gambling. New York courts have properly defined gambling quite narrowly to limit this paternalistic and invasive provision which probably had a religious origin. Any activity, enjoyable or otherwise, especially involving spending money, can be addictive and might be harmful to many members of society, but that by itself is no reason to deny it to informed adults. Might as well ban television.

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but that did not stop the New York State courts from deciding that betting on backgammon is NOT illegal gambling under the NYS constitution.

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citation please?

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The issue is whether the game is PREDOMINANTLY one of skill or luck

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Where in NEW YORK law is this distinction made?

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Reading the on-line version of the NYS Constitution linked above, I find no definition of gambling.

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Gambling is defined in the NY Penal Code.
NY CLS Penal § 225.00 states: "Gambling." A person engages in gambling when he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

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New York courts have properly defined gambling quite narrowly to limit this paternalistic and invasive provision which probably had a religious origin.

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Huh? citation?

I am going to assume you cannot give a citation for any of this, so I will provide one, PEOPLE v. DUBINSKY 31 N.Y.S.2d 234, which states in part:

In answering the questions raised by the defendant as to whether or not the defendant violated Section 973 of the Penal Law, viz., did he keep a room used for gambling, we must necessarily first determine whether gambling took place in the room in question. There is no doubt that to the description of this playing 'stud' poker for money is a game of chance and constitutes gambling. People v. Sergeant, 8 Cow. 139. 'Any [**4] game of cards for stakes is technically gambling.' In re Fischer, 231 App.Div. 193, 247 N.Y.S. 168, 178.

So the courts have ruled on this issue and have ruled specifically that poker is gambling. Well I guess they only specified stud poker, so maybe hold 'em isn't gambling (s/w).

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There was NO searchwarrant...they claimed they had probable cause and they DID come in guns waving and claim that they were going to "blow peoples heads off"


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If this is really the case, then the search was almost certainly illegal. Get a decent lawyer and you can get the whole thing tossed.

In the future find out who you need to pay and pay them. I'm sure there is somebody that has some level of control over these matters that has their hand out.

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Feeling a bit absurd debating a sober legal manner with a poster named "cokehead" I will nonetheless say that the precedent cited does cut to the core of the matter. Poker is a funny game -- it's clearly a gambling game, yet it is also clearly a game of skill. So court's have trouble deciding whether cardrooms should be treated like game clubs, and be legal, or like casinos, and be banned. In California, for many years some poker forms were legal and others were not.I think the bike et al could spread draw but not hold'em, Eventually, the laws caught up with reality, and all poker games were allowed. These days, card rooms seem to be all over in CA, and it seems to be no big deal.

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Feeling a bit absurd debating a sober legal manner with a poster named "cokehead"

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I am addicted to Coca-Cola, not cocaine [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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It'll stop when sensible laws are made.... which will be never, because the government makes too much money from seizures and fines.

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Gambling in NYC will become legal when 2 things happen. The frist I could see happening and it's when the politicians realize they can somehow make more money from having it here than they're making from guys like Trump, who line their pockets to keep the buses flowing out of here to his casino's in AC. The second is a little tougher. It's when the politicians figure out how to make a lot of money from it for themselves.

It took a long time to get cable TV in NYC for the exact reason. It wasn't until Percy Sutton's company, of which David Dinkins and other big names were major shareholders, got a major slice of the monopoly pie for themselves and therefore the votes to pass it. When it comes to changing laws where lots of money will be made, it always comes back to how much the politicians and their friends will make from it. Just look at the West Side Stadium deal.