20/40 7CS/8 ? Expensive Third Street Call With a Live Flush
 

This hand comes from a live, aggressive 20/40 stud eight or better game.

An "action bet" of $20 is posted to the bring-ins' immediate right. The action bet acts as a complete bet in turn. Players in front of the action bet can only call the $5 bring-in (or fold of course). After the action bet completes to $20, the players still in can reraise or call. The action bet has right of last action (i.e., can raise) if all players just call.

Anyway, the bring-in for $5 is a 4c. Next player folds a banana. A competent aggressive player calls $5 with an Ad (her only option at this point ? once again she can raise the action bet when it comes back to her). A decent player calls $5 with the 7d.

Hero has (Jh-3h) 8h. There are no hearts out. Behind Hero is an extremely live, aggressive player with a 6c showing and another player with a banana showing. Knowing it will eventually cost at least $20, should Hero call $5 here?

Let's say Hero calls $5. The live player with the 6c calls $5. The player showing the banana folds. The action bet makes it $20 (there is no option at this point). The bring-in calls $20. Now the aggressive player with the Ad makes it $40 (to say this was foreseeable is an understatement). The decent player with the 7d calls $40.

Hero can call $35 more (note that there could be further raising) or fold. What should Hero do and is it close?

My opinion is noted below.

Regards,

Rick

My Initial Humble Opinion
 

Note that I'm just a beginner at this game so take my advice with a grain of salt.

I think Hero barely had a call for $5 since it will so often come back at $40. But if it had just come back at $20 then Hero can call. Still, it is no better than close (as a beginner I'd fold and look for better spots). But at $40 or more Hero should fold and it isn't close.

IMO the live hearts are outweighed by the weak upcard (the 8h is fine head up, but with four lower cards in play it is almost worthless). With a weak upcard in a multi-way pot Hero's hand becomes a target. Hero has a weak backdoor low, no straight draw, no high pairs, and is essentially drawing long for half the pot. The live player (or another opponents) will often make it $60 so third-street could easily cost $80 (after the ace caps). This is a hand that screams "I need to see fourth street cheaply!" Getting trapped for $40 and maybe $80 later isn't cheap.

Am I too conservative in my approach or is Hero headed for trouble?

Regards,

Rick

Re: 20/40 7CS/8 ? Expensive Third Street Call With a Live Flush
 

Given that its a guaranteed $20 at least on 3rd I would say its an easy fold. I think you have to call for $20 though when it comes back to you. By the way I would say that if hero is known at all to those players they would be able to easily read her hand.

Re: 20/40 7CS/8 ? Expensive Third Street Call With a Live Flush
 

Without reading your opinion or that of the venerable vehn_, I'd say you have a fold. I think playing for one bet is fine, but two is probably -EV. I think the original limp was OK, depending on the aggressiveness of the players still in. If the player with the Ace raises on third street a lot, hero just might save the five bucks.

I love flush draws in high-only stud, but in stud/8 you're usually playing for half the pot. Your low shot in this case is pretty dubious--8-high with a bad one and as many as three low hands in. If you change the <font color="red">8</font color>[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] to the <font color="red">6</font color>[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img], it might be close. If you change the <font color="red">8</font color>[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] to the <font color="red">A</font color>[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img], you have a play. It's amazing how much Aces improve hands in this game. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

All this said, I still have trouble throwing away three-flushes. I think you're asking for trouble in this spot, though. If she had folded for the original five bucks, I don't think she would have been giving up much.

Re: 20/40 7CS/8 ? Fold
 

[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Still could lose with no low. Wait for a better hand with an aggressive game like this. Save the $200+ for a better two way hand that you have both ways working. IMHO!!

Re: My Initial Humble Opinion
 

Rick,

Hero probably doesn't cost herself all that much with the third street call. I have the impression that she plays the later streets well, and that's not an insignificant consideration. I still agree that it's a fold.

Re: 20/40 7CS/8 ? Expensive Third Street Call With a Live Flush
 

Fold, and it's not even very close. If you could limp for $5 with a chance of it not being raised at all, it would be a clear call, but once you know it's going to be "raised", and maybe reraised, fold and save your money.

Why Can\'t Hero Re-Raise Here?
 

maybe 1 or 2 hands fold, not expecting the raise. OTOH, maybe it now becomes correct for the others to call, but it might create a free card on a later street. Who knows, maybe 4th st brings the A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] then hero could be in the driver's seat. Nothing wrong with varying your play

Re: Why Can\'t Hero Re-Raise Here?
 

You want to three-bet and hope you catch the <font color="red">A</font color>[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]? What happens the other 97% of the time? Why the hell does she want to get it heads-up with what is quite likely a vastly superior hand? She has a hand that depends on implied odds. Every third-street raise shortens those implied odds. She'd probably also prefer multi-way action so that she can get paid off if she hits.

You are correct when you say that few would expect a good player with an 8 in the door to three-bet after an Ace raised, but I think that there would be something very, very wrong with varying your play in the way you suggest in this spot.

Re: 20/40 7CS/8 ? Expensive Third Street Call With a Live Flush
 

vehn_,

you wrote: "if hero is known at all to those players they would be able to easily read her hand. "

good point. after six months Hero is now known among a small population of 20/40 stud/8 players and that is a problem. she normally won't chase with a bad low so the call with an eight up will often be a flush or low straight. if she makes a banana flush or non straight baby flush card on fourth street she might as well turn her hand face up. this puts her opponents in the position to play well against her.

~ rick