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-   -   It's your move, 20/40 online (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=26522)

droidboy 12-28-2002 05:44 AM

It\'s your move, 20/40 online
 
Setting:

Four handed 20/40 online poker game at Paradise Poker

Cast:

Online Pro(OP): a dangerous aggressive pro who play a lot of ultra-high limit heads-up games online.

Fish: a loosy goosy who makes many of the classic fishy plays.

Pseudo-Nit: used to be hyper aggro, but now seems to be more concerned with passive check-calling strategies, mixed with some dubious value betting.

Our Hero(OH): an online regular.

Situation:

The OP raises from the button, and OH defends his big blind with 77. OH check-raises the 234 rainbow flop, with OP calling.

The turn comes a suited 5, making the board 2345 with a possibl heart draw. OH bets out and is raised by OP.

Your move. If you were OH would you call, raise or fold?

brad 12-28-2002 09:39 AM

Re: It\'s your move, 20/40 online
 
i think its an easy fold since theres nothing you can beat (except hearts). an Ace or pair beats you and if he has hearts then he just outplays you here i think.

bluecards 12-28-2002 12:03 PM

Re: It\'s your move, 20/40 online
 
Why not 3-bet preflop?

Looks to me like you are getting odds to draw to a six. Call.

You may not have to call a bet on the end...On the off chance he is betting something like K4 suited, you could get a free showdown. I can see the player you described checking on the end with a small pair.

StoneAge 12-28-2002 05:02 PM

Re: It\'s your move, 20/40 online
 
I would say it depends on if he is the kind of player that raises btf with K2-5 or Q2-5 or if he only raises with Q7 or better. If he normally raises with the K2-5 or Q2-5 then I think a call is more definite, otherwise borderline.
btw, I would have probably 3 bet btf.

droidboy 12-29-2002 05:04 AM

Re: It\'s your move, 20/40 online
 
Why not three bet? The raiser is a high limit heads up player who is certainly much better playing head-to-head poker than I am. My primary fear is that if I three-bet him, I am essentially commiting myself to go to the river. If I wait till the flop, I can give up the hand easily or get in a check-raise when I am more sure of my standing.

Versus players who are easier to control three-betting is clearly correct.

In fact, I did call. I wasn't sure of the call then, but looking back on it, I felt that I might have the best hand, and I had 4 outs to beat the straigt, and 2 outs to beat many other hands that currently beat me.

As it is I'm fairly certain that given that set of parlays, and the fact that I might be able to make much more money when I hit the six, this is a clear call. It's not fun, and I'll lose on the river most of the time.

But definatly a clear call.

deadbart 12-29-2002 03:07 PM

Re: It\'s your move, 20/40 online
 
In a 4 handed game, you are probably giving up a lot of value not 3-betting preflop, even against a very good player. Against a very tight player you might not want to, but otherwise I don't think your arguments for not 3-betting are very convincing.

On the turn, I think you have a clear call. But against an aggressive preflop raiser, who is likely to represent the ace, I might be tempted to just check-call. Of course this risks giving a free card to a hand with overcards. But if you think your opponent will bet often enough, and sometimes have you beat, this becomes a case of wanting to check a hand with outs.

mike l. 12-30-2002 02:03 AM

reraise preflop, reraise turn. i dont think button has an A.
 

droidboy 12-30-2002 03:39 PM

Re: reraise preflop, reraise turn. i dont think button has an A.
 
I don't think the problem is quite as straightforward as you make seem. In particular, it's not very obvious that 3-betting preflop is the best course of action. It's also not clear that calling the turn is best either. Maybe if I understood why you think these are correct actions, I'd agree with you more readily.

mike l. 12-30-2002 04:22 PM

Re: reraise preflop, reraise turn. i dont think button has an A.
 
"In particular, it's not very obvious that 3-betting preflop is the best course of action."

against an obvious blind steal from the button i think 77 is too good not to 3 bet here. in other words you are certainly losing EV by not 3 betting here (provided you play well post flop, yadda yadda).

"It's also not clear that calling the turn is best either."

i didnt advocate calling the turn. i suggested reraising. it's clear that button could easily have a hand that doesnt include an A or 6, that he could behind w/ some low pair and he'll call you down to the river, or that he has overcards that he will be forced to fold on the turn. so your 3 bet here would protect your hand and give you the pot a decent amount of the time. those would be my main reasons for 3 betting. another consideration is that by 3 betting here w/ 77 you are sending a message to this guy that he will be played back at fiercely when he attempts to steal your big blind. so you profit on future hands.

the argument that you have reverse implied odds here w/ your turn reraise because it commits you to betting the river (or at least check-calling, perhaps to induce a bluff, but also to avoid getting trapped for 2 bets on the river) is valid. one major consideration would be knowing how likely this button is to value bet 88-JJ here on the river should you check to him after making it 3 bets on the turn. also how likely is this guy to attempt a steal w/ a 6 in his hand? some players would auto raise w/ almost anything when folded to on the button 4 handed, others would throw many small card hands away. something else to think about.

hope this helps clarify. how'd it turn out?





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