QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

On my last orbit clearing the Littlewoods bonus, so this is a typical 1/2 Crypto table. Pretty tight in general, but lots of action on this hand. Just wondering if the turn laydown is alright, since I was pretty sure it was going to get re-raised behind me. Also, the preflop 3-bet by the SB means a pretty big hand, which caused me not to cap preflop. I'd cap it if anyone else had made the 3-bet.

I'm dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in UTG+1.

UTG calls, I raise, 3 cold callers, SB 3-bets, UTG calls, I call, other 3 call. Pot: $19

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Small blind bets, UTG calls, I raise, MP1 re-raises, 1 fold, CO calls 3 cold, SB calls, UTG folds, I call. Pot: $32

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks, I check, MP1 bets, CO calls, SB raises, I fold...

Comments appreciated.

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

cap preflop. you have probably the best hand. SB might have raised with a hand that plays well multiway. like AKs, AQs, AJs, or simply AK or JJ. if you are beaten you get nice odds to make a set against this many opponents.

the turn is a toughy. yesterday a KQ shut me out on a 8 high board, me holding a 99 (didn't matter since he would have sucked out and someone else had me beat at that point). even against that massive show of strength - i would call and pray.
all the agression might come from JJ, AK and a flush draw. the pot is just too big to risk to lay down the best hand imo.

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

Besides the fact that the pot is huge, think of it this way: How is the SB supposed to know you have an overpair larger than J's here? You didn't cap preflop, so JJ-TT are perfectly reasonable hands for the small blind to be checkraising with. Not to mention AsKs. I dont think this is a fold.

As for preflop, not capping is a travesty. This pot is likely going to be 6 ways, so even if you knew SB would only 3bet AA-KK you almost have the equity to raise anyway. But that really isn't important. What is important is that SB might be 3betting AK here, or JJ, or TT. In each situation you are losing significant amounts of money, while capping against AA is losing relatively very little.

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Besides the fact that the pot is huge, think of it this way: How is the SB supposed to know you have an overpair larger than J's here? You didn't cap preflop, so JJ-TT are perfectly reasonable hands for the small blind to be checkraising with. Not to mention AsKs. I dont think this is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this came down to my reads at the table. This was a really tight table, not a typical Party table. The re-raise by MP1 on the flop combined with the check-raise by SB on the turn had me almost 100% certain that I was up against either a set or AA/KK. I also was not confident in my Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] out, since CO's behavior seems like he's chasing a flush draw. I just wasn't comfortable calling two bets on the turn, with the possiblity of facing one or two more after that if MP1 re-raises (which seemed likely), when I've only got at most two outs, or maybe just one.

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

If you know SB wouldn't 3bet with less than KK, then by all means fold this here. But you can't say "either AA KK or a set" because that implies a larger preflop 3betting range. A range which would then include JJ-TT and AKs, which you are ahead of here.

And if you are sure that SB wouldn't 3bet with less than KK, why did you raise the flop?

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

I am not trying to pick on you here, as harsh as my last post seemed. It's just that this whole hand is brimming with weak/tight attitudes that you need to get rid of. And the only way to do that is really think out how sure you have to be that you are beat to fold in this huge pot.

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

Who is in the SB? If he's a good player, maybe he decided to raise the turn to thin the field after noticing MP1 re-raise on the flop. This is a possibility. If so, I would contemplate a 3B on the turn. I would have capped preflop but I can also understand the smooth call b/c you will have good relative position. Also, you decided to raise the flop, people will be getting odds to call in this monster pot, maybe you should wait and attempt a raise on the turn. In any case, unless you have a strong read, I disagree with your fold. You could very well have the best hand and folding would be a serious mistake in a pot this huge. I think you're pretty much committed to a showdown.

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

I think that not capping pre-flop isn't a huge sin as long as you were planning to raise the turn instead of the flop.

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in UTG+1.

UTG calls, I raise, 3 cold callers, SB 3-bets, UTG calls, I call, other 3 call. Pot: $19


[/ QUOTE ]

If the 3 cold callers are indeed tight, then you will know more about their hand by capping this and making them call 2 more bets preflop. They might have all called anyway, but you need to take every opportunity you have to thin this field. Tight players will not typically hang onto hands like 33 or 44 in a capped pot.

Re: QQ. I need to lay this down, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you know SB wouldn't 3bet with less than KK, then by all means fold this here. But you can't say "either AA KK or a set" because that implies a larger preflop 3betting range. A range which would then include JJ-TT and AKs, which you are ahead of here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I said set referring to MP1, not SB. SB won't 3-bet TT. Maybe JJ, but that's a stretch for him in my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
And if you are sure that SB wouldn't 3bet with less than KK, why did you raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was trying to get the players behind me to fold, to try to avoid any re-raises behind me. If that was successful, at least I'd be able to show down cheap.

The results:

I fold, MP1 re-raises, CO calls, SB calls.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, SB calls.

MP1 shows 99 for three nines.
CO mucks.
SB shows AA for pair of aces.

MP1 drags the pot, and I end the night really pissed off.

I would not have laid it down on the turn if I thought there was any chance I had the best hand. But it seems like the consensus is I should have continued anyway.

Also, if I cap preflop here and the action is the same, then what? By capping I've represented a big hand, but SB is still going to bet the flop, I'm still going to raise, and MP1 will still 3-bet...