$109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

I'm not eager to post a hand that makes me look like such an idiot, but I've shown this hand to a couple people and I've been asked to post it.

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1945)
Button (t1990)
Hero (t5550)
BB (t515)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, Button calls t300, Hero calls t150, <font color="red">BB t215 (All-in)</font>, Button calls t215, Hero calls t215

Flop: (t1545) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">Button t1475 (All-in)</font>, <font color="gray">Hero folds</font>

Turn: (t3020) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)


River: (t3020) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)


I'm not going to hide the results, you are all big boys and girls.

BB has Kh, 6h
Button has Qd, 6d

I know I have a lot of chips. I know I have top pair. I just thought it was unfathomable that he could bet here without crushing me. I mean the average player HATES betting here EVER. Some opponents, myself included, will bet out of the check-down scenerio, BUT NOT WITHOUT A HAND!!!!

Was this a bad fold, a really bad fold, or the worst damn fold in the history of the earth?

I know that was one of the worst freakin bets I've ever seen, and thankfully that dumb bastard busted out 4th.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

Wow for real? I dump that ish with the quickness.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

I'll take partial credit/blame/whatever for asking microbet to post this.

Before he told me the results I said I'd probably call most of the time because of the pot odds and the possibility of either having the best hand or sucking out.

I'm not sure if I was right or not. I dont think folding or calling is horrible here. I certainly dont think he played it like an idiot. I hope to see lots of other opinions on this hand.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

Microbet, just out of curiosity, did you consider pushing pre-flop? If not, was it because of some read on the button? Seems like he'd need a monster to call, so by pushing you'd get heads up with shortstack with an above average hand and 300 extra chips to sweeten the pot.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

Had a similar hand myself recently.. I thought it was a bad play at the time, but then wondered whether it might not be +EV - he is, after all, getting a better hand to fold without essentially risking any more chips.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

It's a bit of a tough question. You're right that many people need monsters here to bet, but the question in my mind is what kind of monster he's going to play this way PF. AA is obviously unlikely, and I'd think JJ (or even 33) would want to isolate once the BB was already all-in. This goes for many of the better aces, too. So it seems pretty implausible for you to be beat. I call here, if I think it through, but I don't hate the fold and might make it in similar situations if I was just whipping through.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

I fold here.

I figure that we are both going to call down to push the short stack out. So I am not going to get aggressive. I assume that they are thinking along similar lines. When they push I assume that they have a hand and do not need my help in pushing shorty out.

If two folks want to go at it on the bubble.. I let them.

--
tjh

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

Yah this is an awful bet.

I'd say this is a moderately bad fold, limping on the button isn't indicative of an ace on most levels. Of course you never want to bust 4th so I've made folds like this.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

I'm not always the biggest bubble pwner in the world, but I had been pwning this one pretty mercilessly. I wouldn't have expected button to be surprised by a push from me, so I didn't think I should do it. In fact, I pushed over his completion on the previous hand.

If I had been really quiet and he just made the "I just want help bust shorty" play, I would have felt differently.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not always the biggest bubble pwner in the world, but I had been pwning this one pretty mercilessly. I wouldn't have expected button to be surprised by a push from me, so I didn't think I should do it. In fact, I pushed over his completion on the previous hand.

If I had been really quiet and he just made the "I just want help bust shorty" play, I would have felt differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. That makes perfect sense to me and would have been my thinking at the time, given those circumstances.

As the hand played out, I would have folded as well.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

How is hero getting fourth?!

Call.

Yugoslav
Who also likes the idea of pushing preflop before BB is allin.....some may fold there and then ur FE is HUGE!

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

Your villian's play wasn't nearly as bad. He had a big stack. My villian really needed shorty to bust and his hand was even worse.

On the one hand I could call more easily because I had a big stack, but the bet to you was only 200 and with some implied odds too you could have picked up a nice pot without risking much more and in that case as 2nd stack, busting shorty is more beneficial to you.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

[ QUOTE ]
How is hero getting fourth?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's the issue, so much as firing off another 1/3 of our stack and giving up excellent chip position going into ITM. We're probably unlikely enough to bust at all that giving up a big chunk of stack to another opponent gives up substantially more equity than what we gain by really guaranteeing that BB busts. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, though, I have a hard time seeing how a hand that beats me gets here given the action we've seen.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

Folderrific.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

Yeah, hero's not getting fourth, and thankfully got 1st. Hero just thought there was almost no chance he wasn't owned. Hero was wrong. Hero thought villian would only limp there with a strong hand. Hero was wrong.

FE is huge, but after that play I wouldn't count on villian recognizing that fact, but pushing preflop might have been best.

I'm exaggerating in calling myself an idiot. I don't think it was terrible to put villian on a huge hand. I don't really know. I guess you should never go below 10% or so on the chances of villian just being completely brain dead.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

If you couldn't repush preflop following the BBs raise, I would probably fold here as well. I would fold because if the BB wins, I can dominate this table even more. By folding, you save chips when the button has a hand, and will still win some chips during the next hands if he is bluffing. Folding is a win/win scenario.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

That's a good point and I wanted to dominate after that, unfortunately my first attempt to dominate ran into AQs and after that I had to work for my victory.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

btw I would move allin preflop basically everytime here.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

Yeah, I'm still too shy about pwnage.

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm still too shy about pwnage.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have more than half the chips in play

pwn at will, good sir

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

micro,

Look, even if your FE here isn't as huge as it normally is, it's still significant and frankly, you have a pretty decent hand if you just push to begin with.

After the flop it's way more than decent. The blinds are too high IMO to allow yourself to do what you did (see a flop....hit top pair......fold).

Oh, also, button is raising (or not playing) most of the hands that are ahead of you after this flop.

Yugoslav

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

You are 100% right.

pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn pwn

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, hero's not getting fourth, and thankfully got 1st. Hero just thought there was almost no chance he wasn't owned. Hero was wrong. Hero thought villian would only limp there with a strong hand. Hero was wrong.

FE is huge, but after that play I wouldn't count on villian recognizing that fact, but pushing preflop might have been best.

I'm exaggerating in calling myself an idiot. I don't think it was terrible to put villian on a huge hand. I don't really know. I guess you should never go below 10% or so on the chances of villian just being completely brain dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO; you weren't exaggerating; You're an Idiot [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

haha, strategy pwned by yugo. i was going to write what he wrote, but he's got more time on his hands apparently.

c

Re: $109 facing a bet into a dry side pot, I turn into an idiot
 

if I got to a flop here I'd type in the chat "Are you an idiot or do you actually have him???" and then I'd fold and punch a wall once I realized they are always idiots.