Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

I love this, mainly because I do the same thing! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] So many lower level guys get in trouble by standard raising hands like this:

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1545)
CO (t2210)
Hero (t1635)
SB (t3405)
BB (t1205)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero t1635 (All-in)</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

I see the value in it...

Question: Aren't you pushing more to protect your stack (by raising/missing getting bet/raised off the hand AFTER losing chips) than trying to buy blinds?

It seems like poor blind buying as far as risk/return goes...but I don't own SNGPT - so please correct if I'm wrong...

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

this should be +$EV, but there are other moves which are more +$EV

why no standard raise-- fold to reraise, or are people to agresive to resteal w/ 89s?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

I push here as well. My reasons:

1) It keeps me out of trouble.

2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

well if sb is on tight and bb is on average its +.8, messing around with all the preset ranges its anywhere from +.7 to .9

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
I push here as well. My reasons:

1) It keeps me out of trouble.

2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with both your points.

My main question was about the POINT of the raise.

Isn't the main POINT - as you said - to keep you out of trouble with the added benefit of buying a couple blinds...

If the main point is blind buying...then I don't get it...

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push here as well. My reasons:

1) It keeps me out of trouble.

2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with both your points.

My main question was about the POINT of the raise.

Isn't the main POINT - as you said - to keep you out of trouble with the added benefit of buying a couple blinds...

If the main point is blind buying...then I don't get it...

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Why not? What's wrong with killing a fly with a howitzer? I've got the best hand, if they don't want me buying their blinds, they're gonna have to risk all their chips.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

This is one where my slider dances around a bit and then goes to push. BB's stack not being only 12 BBs and then your stack not being much more than that makes a standard raise tough.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

The question is if pushing is more +EV than a raise as I think its obvious folding and limping are out of the question.

I think the Hero and SBs stacks are the biggest factor in the push. If Hero standard raises, SB being the big stack may be willing to put a few chips at risk to try call and push Hero off the hand post flop.

Maybe its just playing scared, but I hate playing this hand post flop against a big stack when I miss.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push here as well. My reasons:

1) It keeps me out of trouble.

2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with both your points.

My main question was about the POINT of the raise.

Isn't the main POINT - as you said - to keep you out of trouble with the added benefit of buying a couple blinds...

If the main point is blind buying...then I don't get it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? What's wrong with killing a fly with a howitzer? I've got the best hand, if they don't want me buying their blinds, they're gonna have to risk all their chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you're 10x as good as me...so I don't know what I can do other than agree and start playing it this way...

for my heads sake though - can't you just kill this fly with a fly-swatter and get out of the way to an AI re-raise?
....or is that a leak?

Also I was gonna ask if one of my problems with this is the structure difference between PP and PS. Since I play on PS and start with T1500 chips, I don't value the 50/100 level blind stealing as high as you PP players might?

If I factor that in - then I'm with ya 100%.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well you're 10x as good as me...so I don't know what I can do other than agree and start playing it this way...

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Ha, you know you're responding to 45suited, not Curtains, right? I wouldn't claim to be 10x better than anyone. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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for my heads sake though - can't you just kill this fly with a fly-swatter and get out of the way to an AI re-raise?
....or is that a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

My take: how are you gonna fold to an AI re-raise from an unknown? What if the guy's got 88 and he views your standard raise as a button steal? No way would I fold to a re-raise, for that reason. I just push here, but if you want explanations from a smart guy, ask Curtains, not 45suited. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well you're 10x as good as me...so I don't know what I can do other than agree and start playing it this way...

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Ha, you know you're responding to 45suited, not Curtains, right? I wouldn't claim to be 10x better than anyone. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
for my heads sake though - can't you just kill this fly with a fly-swatter and get out of the way to an AI re-raise?
....or is that a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

My take: how are you gonna fold to an AI re-raise from an unknown? What if the guy's got 88 and he views your standard raise as a button steal? No way would I fold to a re-raise, for that reason. I just push here, but if you want explanations from a smart guy, ask Curtains, not 45suited. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I think perhaps you are underestimting my suckiness, sir. ...but for your sake, we'll reduce it to 3x as good.

Coolio?

I don't play a crapload...so I can always hope I've just been running cold and that it just takes me more physical time to play through the these streaks 'cuz of my low volume.


Anyways... I wasn't saying I WOULD fold to an AI...just saying I like giving myself the CHANCE too....

Would you standard raise if the blinds were classicaly weak-tight?

Also - you're probably right about the reduced steal ranges against a button raiser... I need to think of that stuff more often in those spots...

Then again...if I push there more often, I wouldn't have those spots in the first place, so...yeah...

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

I've started pushing in situations like this as well for reasons that sofere describes. Situations like this when blinds are getting high and I standard raise and then the flop misses me always cause me problems. You may even luck out and get called by AJ (or any ace rag at the lower levels) or KQ. People really love to defend their blinds with ace rag. I see it so frequently.

Do you fold if you standard raise and they re-raise you all-in? If not you may as well push it right?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

This is an automatic push to me, Id never remotely consider anything else. I found my results improved when I played more robotically in such situations, and stopped trying to be greedy and squeeze some EV out of situations. Also if you raise to 250-300, you cant fold to a reraise no matter what. AQo is way too powerful a holding on the button.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

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I found my results improved when I played more robotically in such situations, and stopped trying to be greedy and squeeze some EV out of situations.

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I think this thread just helped me find a huge leak.

Thanks guys.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

Yeha I mean its already worth like about $15-$20 to just push in the $215s, do I really expect another play to be worth more $?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]

This is an automatic push to me, Id never remotely consider anything else. I found my results improved when I played more robotically in such situations, and stopped trying to be greedy and squeeze some EV out of situations. Also if you raise to 250-300, you cant fold to a reraise no matter what. AQo is way too powerful a holding on the button.

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Well said. I make this sort of 10-15BB push a lot myself, to avoid sticky situations and simplify my play for bajillion-tabling. I assume you play AK the same?

Same spot, same stacks what are you doing with

AJ?
99-JJ?
QQ-AA?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

I play the same always with AQo. My opponents depend on how I play other hands. If the blinds are people I play with a lot I will often push the best hands sometimes, so they will know that I do it. I may even show the hand as well. AJo I would push also, the hand is too powerful on the button. Makes life easy somehow.

There are some things I would raise to 250-300 with....such as TT+ and sometimes AK against some opponents or some other random hands that I would likely fold to a reraise.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

When I'm in late position, I tend to play a hand slower because I want to use my positional advantage. I will push the exact same hand from the blinds because it's hard to play high non-pair hands (AK, AQ) out of position and they tend to gain value when they can goto the river.

Is this over-thinking the situation and should I play it more robotically?

2nd part question: When you say that your "results improved when I played more robotically in such situations"...what do you mean by "such situations". Is there one thing particularly about this situation that makes you push-it...your hand in particular or the stack sizes or the stack sizes in relation to the blinds?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

Push. You're not folding to a re-raise after you make a standard raise so you might as well push.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]


2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk &gt;x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I'm in late position, I tend to play a hand slower because I want to use my positional advantage. I will push the exact same hand from the blinds because it's hard to play high non-pair hands (AK, AQ) out of position and they tend to gain value when they can goto the river.

Is this over-thinking the situation and should I play it more robotically?

2nd part question: When you say that your "results improved when I played more robotically in such situations"...what do you mean by "such situations". Is there one thing particularly about this situation that makes you push-it...your hand in particular or the stack sizes or the stack sizes in relation to the blinds?

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I basically mean all situations once the blinds get to 50-100/75-150 and I have like 15x BB or less. This case is small exception but the thing is there is zero chance Im folding to a reraise, nor do I want to encourage someone with 44 to do so. It's a tradeoff...sometimes a smaller raise will encourage a pair to play with you that otherwise wouldn't have (which you dont want) and sometimes itll encourage a weaker ace (which you do want). Other downsides are that your opponent can flat call preflop, which is not something you want to happen.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk &gt;x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)

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The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

What are you doing with A8o with the button here?

If blinds know you will be pushing your better hands, do you have to muck it?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk &gt;x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?


[/ QUOTE ]
The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a mathematical justification for it.

There is a point where if you have nBB that it is mathematically incorrect to raise and then fold to a n allin reraise.

I don't remember what the actual number is and I think 10BB is a slight overestimation, and I think it depends on your holding, but 10BB is a good number for a rule of thumb.

Does anyone have an archive link?

The Karlson-Sklansky hand rankings, although not addressing this exact problem are a look in the right general direction.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

The justification:

You have 1000 chips on the button. You raise to 300, and someone comes over the top, you are now risking 700 chips to call and win 1350 giving you 2:1 odds. There are pretty much no hands that are much worse than a 2:1 dog against any opponents range.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
The justification:

You have 1000 chips on the button. You raise to 300, and someone comes over the top, you are now risking 700 chips to call and win 1350 giving you 2:1 odds. There are pretty much no hands that are much worse than a 2:1 dog against any opponents range.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me the part of the justification that is lost is what happens when you get flat called and whiff on the flop, which is just as important. I push in spots like the OP all the time.

There's no point giving hope to someone who's got a mediocre hand by just raising. Plus, you do get called by hands that you crush, since many people can't see pushing hands that strong.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

I completely agree

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk &gt;x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)

[/ QUOTE ]


The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.

[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts with the actual hand would have been something along the lines of: if I get re-raised all-in, I can call; if someone flat calls, I'll be playing the hand with position. Which would have been OK with me.

More than a 10x or 15x rule, what I'm really looking for is the thinking behind the action. I'd like to understand rather than follow a rule.

So, what is the thinking that makes you decide to push rather than make a 2.5-3x BB raise? Is it as simple as: I have to call an all-in, so I might as well push? Or, is there something more behind it?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

So are you pushing bigger hands here as well? Is this part of a mixed strategy or are you to push any playable hand here?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

If the BB calls, then playing a 500-600 chip pot with position when there is only 900-1000 chips left in play, can be very unpleasant on quite a few flops. Missing flops like these and having to decide how much or whether to c-bet can be one of the most irritating decisions and poker.

I prefer to just take my $15-$20 of value, and also some of these guys will call with plenty of hands that I crush.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB calls, then playing a 500-600 chip pot with position when there is only 900-1000 chips left in play, can be very unpleasant on quite a few flops. Missing flops like these and having to decide how much or whether to c-bet can be one of the most irritating decisions and poker.

I prefer to just take my $15-$20 of value, and also some of these guys will call with plenty of hands that I crush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is there a range of hands with which you make a standard raise? Or, is the situation such that it basically becomes push or fold?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

Someone asked about A8o..Id probably raise to 250 with that hand, as I would with big hands like QQ as well.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

hehe ya i noticed this too, he's always jamming over 10 BB's on steals or instead of standard raising...i've since adopted the strategy, thanks curtains [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

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Someone asked about A8o..Id probably raise to 250 with that hand, as I would with big hands like QQ as well.

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Why would you raise 250 w/A8o but push w/AQ? Aren't you faced with the same tough decision if one of the blinds calls and you miss the flop and have to decide whether to c-bet or not? And if one of the blinds pushes, you're going to call, aren't you? Then why not push? I don't understand the reason for playing the two hands differently.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

what i dont like about it is it takes away the weak resteal. It's less likely they would call with A6, but will often push with it figuring you are stealing. I like to give them the opportunity to make that mistake.

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

If opponents know that he also raises with super-premium hands (QQ+), they will be less likely to push over the raise. In effect, the raise is either really good, or sort of good; the big hands protect the sort of good hands. Right?

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

I get the impression that he will fold to a push when he bets A8o. But his opponents, knowing he's a strong player and also being strong players themselves (and i'm comfortable assuming most players at 215s are!!), will be less likely to reraise AI on a "scary bet" like that. Also, betting his top hands this way should give them a chance to respect the 3x bb raise even more than they regularly would.

This is my impression, and it's also how i'll play these hands now since it doesn't make sense to stack myself to say A10+ when the bb pushes me and i have 15x bb

Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'
 

how do you respond to a Stop N GO if you miss the flop though? Would you be comfortable folding? If so, does the 1/3 times you call it make it worth it.
What about a 1/2 - fullsized bet on the flop if you miss it?