interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

stacks: me ~10K villian ~7K
relevant reads: villian is aggressive but good, solid player, but not afraid to make moves.

villian's read of me: views me as a thinking player but definately LAG. knows i'm more then capable of betting w/air if i sense weakness. also i believe he has picked up on the fact that i like to overbet strong hands on the river. (for LAPOKER17 this is karga).

i limp after one limper w/red JJ.
two or three limpers and he checks his BB.

flop comes 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

checked to me i pot it for ~ $260.
villian is only caller.

turn is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

check, check.

river is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

villian checks i bet $700
he checkraises me to $2200.

thoughts?

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Since there are a bunch of limpers and he checks his option in the BB and doesn't go nuts on the flop or turn, I think we can rule out a big pair like AA KK or QQ. I also don't think a decent player would make this move with a 10 because he will only get called by a hand that beats him. Therefore, I believe the two hands that are possible are pure bluff or the 3. now we have to figure out which one he has.

Since you mention that he has noticed that you like to overbet pots on the river with strong hands, and while you didn't over bet the pot, you put in a good chunk of it (about 90%), he has to put you on a hand. I think if he had the 3 he would've played it differently on the river such as betting out. There is 2680 in the pot and it costs you 1500 to see it, so you are getting a little bit less than 2 to 1. I think that's about right for a call here.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

How does just checking behind compare to betting that river? Are there many worse hands that check-call you there? I guess tens, sixes and small pocket pairs might. But I wonder if a lot of the time worse hands will either check-fold or check-raise and better hands either check-call or check-raise.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Never check that hand. You are a LAG player and people will never give you respect for limping JJ. MAybe he has something liek 6T and thinks he just got the edge on you. Of course he could easily have the 3, but I cant see a fold on the river ever unless he check raised you allin. Pay this off, you're good 60% of the time.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

since "i" bet i did not think he had the quads, and quads usually aren't hard to spot. so i call. what did he have?

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

I'm biased because villain is my best friend in poker, and I think he's a pretty sick player, but I still don't know if even the best players are capable of checking quads there after you showed such little interest on the turn. It's quite a risk.

I'm voting for air.

Either way, he played it pretty fing well. I think I'm calling though.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

I am an atrocious player lately but I will frequently check quads here.

let\'s go back to the flop...
 

here's the thing rbk,

what did he call you on the flop with?....what did you put him on?.....

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

I'd probably call here also. I would've checked the river in this situation.

I suppose he could've had the flush and just put you on Ace high or a small pocket pair. I'm thinking that HE thought you were simply trying to steal with the riverbet or you had a marginal hand that he could make you fold.

Although I was in a damn similar situation. Regardless of what my hand was, it went something like this:

All Limpers

Flop
AA3

Check, I bet, Call

Turn A

Check, I bet, Call

River Q

Check, I bet, I get raised, told player I had a full house and eventually folded after figuring she had it.

Granted, the person I played against was a much different player and very tight, so it was simply my fault for trying to take this pot. And she did have Quad Aces. 8 high didn't look very good at that point.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

BTW, he could also have TT, and be pretty sure it's good. I know you do a lot of [censored] too Jonas, but I just don't see you limping after a limper with many hands that include a 3.