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-   -   Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=405690)

Dave D 12-27-2005 02:03 AM

Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
I think I donked this one. How do you play this? I have villian labeled a donk due to a particularly donktacular time when she paid me off earlier calling off a draw w/o odds.

Comments on all parts of the hand appreciated.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG+2 (t4613)
MP1 (t1705)
MP2 (t11573)
MP3 (t3910)
CO (t3075)
Button (t3167)
SB (t1768)
Hero (t7114)
UTG (t6145)
UTG+1 (t1080)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t500</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t300.

Flop: (t1100) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t700</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1400</font>, Hero calls t700.

Turn: I put her all in for 1250ish..(t3900) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t3900) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t3900

Dave D 12-27-2005 01:29 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
NO ONE has anything to say here?

Pasterbator 12-27-2005 01:31 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
Reraise to 1400 preflop, push any flop?

Dave D 12-27-2005 01:33 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
Reraise to 1400 preflop, push any flop?

[/ QUOTE ]


YOU, stay out of my SnGs.

Yeah, I mean this call line would be my standard with AA-TT and probably AK. I thought I was pushing it w/ AQ, but the donkyness of the player made me think I could do that. Then again, you can't bluff a calling station...which is what she ends up being.

12-27-2005 01:34 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
I hate messing with donks, because they tend to be calling stations. The only hand you are beating on the flop is K high, in my opinion, with maybe an AJ, A9 if she has liberal raising standards. I would give up once the donk raised you on the flop. She's serious about something, which probably isn't a whole lot, but it has to beat AQ. Odds of you getting her off of it are very slim after she raised preflop and then tossed in a re-raise on the flop.

Pasterbator 12-27-2005 01:44 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reraise to 1400 preflop, push any flop?

[/ QUOTE ]


YOU, stay out of my SnGs.

Yeah, I mean this call line would be my standard with AA-TT and probably AK. I thought I was pushing it w/ AQ, but the donkyness of the player made me think I could do that. Then again, you can't bluff a calling station...which is what she ends up being.

[/ QUOTE ]

The $33s are MY SNGs, find your own.

Anyway, i don't like playing it the way you did. Most donks don't think about their opponents hand. They play theirs. So bluffing these people isn't very profitable. If you decide to get it all in preflop (or close to it), with what is likely the best hand in this Button/BB situation, I think you will come out ahead more often than not.

If you feel the need to call preflop, I think checkraising all in on the flop could scare the donk, just because "I saw Phil Ivey checkraise all in this one time and he had 10-10, so you must have flopped quads, and im not paying it off."

KneeCo 12-27-2005 01:45 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
Why do you lead out at the flop?

Seems like an odd move to me, you didn't reraise pf, and you wouldn't lead out with a T (of course you might, but I'm saying from the villain's perspective in this hand). From his POV, I think it looks like you have nothing or mid-pockets.

If you want to make a move on the flop, I think a CR would have been a lot better.

MLG 12-27-2005 01:57 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
not reraising preflop with these stacks is fairly criminal.

Dave D 12-27-2005 02:12 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
not reraising preflop with these stacks is fairly criminal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with AA/KK/QQ?

I like calling for decepticon value.

Dave D 12-27-2005 02:13 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you lead out at the flop?

Seems like an odd move to me, you didn't reraise pf, and you wouldn't lead out with a T (of course you might, but I'm saying from the villain's perspective in this hand). From his POV, I think it looks like you have nothing or mid-pockets.

If you want to make a move on the flop, I think a CR would have been a lot better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I led out for info basically. A c/r would probably have to be all in from me, and would probably just commit her to calling right? Insert citation of that thread from a few months back about the call flop lead turn line b/c c/ring just committs people so it's bad to bluff with.

Pasterbator 12-27-2005 02:15 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not reraising preflop with these stacks is fairly criminal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with AA/KK/QQ?

I like calling for decepticon value.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had AA/KK/QQ you could make this play. However, a donk will not be able to think beyond the fact that you DIDN'T reraise, so you can't have those hands.

You shouldn't be "trapping" with AQ.

MLG 12-27-2005 02:15 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
I will call with lots of hands from the BB. A10s, 67s, 108s, J10s and sometimes AA/KK. I'm pretty much always reraising QQ/JJ/AK/AQ and often but not always reraising with AA/KK especially if they are loose donks. I meant specifically not reraising with AQ here with these stack sizes is fairly criminal.

Dave D 12-27-2005 02:18 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
I hate messing with donks, because they tend to be calling stations. The only hand you are beating on the flop is K high, in my opinion, with maybe an AJ, A9 if she has liberal raising standards. I would give up once the donk raised you on the flop. She's serious about something, which probably isn't a whole lot, but it has to beat AQ. Odds of you getting her off of it are very slim after she raised preflop and then tossed in a re-raise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is quite true. Firstly, her raise PF was SCREAMING "let me raise in LP to try to steal", so I really put her on any two. On teh flop I'm ahead of basically any two broadway cards except AK or a pair. Villian could also have any pair 99 or below and think I have a T. I thought there was a lot of value to leading out and hopefully scaring her out of her attempt to steal PF thinking to herself "oops, I got caught stealing, darn".

Ian J 12-27-2005 02:19 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
I think it's a fairly mandatory reraise preflop. With her stack and position, getting all in preflop here is the way to go. Whether you reraise to 1500ish or just shove, I don't think it really matters.

Postflop, since you were determined to get all in on that board, I think checkraising the flop all in is the best way to go.

Pasterbator 12-27-2005 02:20 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you lead out at the flop?

Seems like an odd move to me, you didn't reraise pf, and you wouldn't lead out with a T (of course you might, but I'm saying from the villain's perspective in this hand). From his POV, I think it looks like you have nothing or mid-pockets.

If you want to make a move on the flop, I think a CR would have been a lot better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I led out for info basically. A c/r would probably have to be all in from me, and would probably just commit her to calling right? Insert citation of that thread from a few months back about the call flop lead turn line b/c c/ring just committs people so it's bad to bluff with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the thread you're talking about is an alternative to checkraising (with a good hand.) Because, in his example, checkraising wouldnt commit the villain, but calling and leading the turn, disguises your hand, and may force him to pay you off.

In this spot, you don't want to be called, and the villain is very likely to be raising your lead. Checkraising the flop maximizes you FE in this hand.

Pasterbator 12-27-2005 02:25 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
here's what you're looking for. Enjoy.

Elaboration 12-27-2005 02:32 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
DaveD,

Hmm..cant say that I like your line.

Assuming Donk will raise the button with less than premiums, I think you have an easy re-raise pf.

Then, you try to run a semi-bluff against a known calling station on a raggety flop?

Not sure what I think of the turn push.

Dave D 12-27-2005 03:07 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
here's what you're looking for. Enjoy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, and I just bookmarked it.

I guess I got confused about the original thread, and was actually referancing when Lethalrose says "I think what jason is refering to is players who will checkraise a small stacked opponent, not taking into account they are pot commited. And doing this with air. Very bad.. "

I think this is a very valid point, and I want to avoid doing that.

Dave D 12-27-2005 03:08 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
[ QUOTE ]
DaveD,

Hmm..cant say that I like your line.

Assuming Donk will raise the button with less than premiums, I think you have an easy re-raise pf.

Then, you try to run a semi-bluff against a known calling station on a raggety flop?

Not sure what I think of the turn push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, at the time I wasn't sure that the donk actually was a CS per se, just that she was bad b/c she'd called me down with a pretty bad hand earlier. It was only one hand too.

Anyway, the result was that she called, and she held A6 for the turned boat. Annoying, but I survived.

wizard 12-27-2005 03:37 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
You're right, You were the donk on this hand. Why no reraise preflop?

12-27-2005 04:08 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
Dave,

Being the aggressor is the key to winning with hands like AQ. You know that most flops are going to miss both you and Villain, and you want to be the one raking in the pot when that happens. Even if the flop hits Villain, KT6, says, she'll be hard-pressed to call a push when you've re-raised her. And, of course, you'll have 10 outs if she does call.

Think about the effect your line will have on Villain. You're 95% sure your hand is best pre-flop. After the flop, it sounds like your plan is to induce a fold whenever Villain misses. In other words, you are planning on "bluffing" the flop, even though most of the time Villain folds, you are ahead anyway. This allows Villain to play perfectly: you hand her your stack when she's ahead, and you give her a red flag when she's beat. If you re-raise pre-flop, Villain will often call or push with a hand you dominate, and when she folds, she'll often be getting at least close to the correct odds to call.

Dave D 12-27-2005 04:29 PM

Re: Gosh... AQ against a donk. Party 30+3 w/ 250 entrants
 
Yes, I overthought this hand and went too far w/ the whole calling idea (which I'd do w/ KK/AA etc as I mentioned). Duly noted, will raise next time.

Me and AQ only recently got together, it's a very shaky relationship right now but I'm starting to deal better.


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