Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

I think this call preflop is fine. It has scoop potential in terms of high hands. This and other four cards nine or higher hands are played strictly for high, and with the correct high flop you will scoop the pot. Obviously in this scenario, you muck this hand unless the straight is already made. No sense in drawing for half a pot.

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this call preflop is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you do. You play 3-4-5-6.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this call preflop is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you do. You play 3-4-5-6.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

nh sir

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course you do. You play 3-4-5-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Niss - Clever reply! It inspired me to compare 3456 with 9TJK.
Here are my (eight non-folding opponents) simulation results for
3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and
9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
9TJKs-.....478.....0.....710.....1188
3456s-.....304.....593.....345.....1242

You’re not playing either hand. Fine.
Jeffrey is playing both hands. Fine.
There's not just one style of play that works.

I’m not going to mention any names but it’s interesting that some evidently would shun the 3456 hand while tending to embrace the 9TJK hand.

Although it’s hard to exactly compare the totals because the 9TJK hand scoops more than the 3456 hand, as you can see, the total number of whole pot equivalents won are really rather close, with the 3456 hand actually having a slight edge over the 9TJK hand.

Buzz

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

I would fold preflop. The 9 devalues your hand. If the 9 was a Q your hand might be worth a call. Being suited Jack-high does not add enough value to turn this hand into a call.

On the flop you have 13 out for a straight (four 6s, three 9s, three Ts, and three Js). Making your straight does not guarantee winning high. There are already three low cards out. You are only playing for half the pot. This is a clear fold.

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my (eight non-folding opponents) simulation results for
3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and
9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
9TJKs-.....478.....0.....710.....1188
3456s-.....304.....593.....345.....1242


[/ QUOTE ]

Quite an interesting result. I certainly didn't expect the 3456s to be a "better" hand.

One reason why I would much prefer a 9TJK over a 3456 is that the 9TJK is much easier to play. As soon as the flop comes you can quite easily judge whether you want to continue or not.

With a 3456 the only flop I'm going to be happy with is A2x. Even another good flop (I think the flop in the hand in question was 236?) is going to be hard to play.

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course you do. You play 3-4-5-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Niss - Clever reply! It inspired me to compare 3456 with 9TJK.
Here are my (eight non-folding opponents) simulation results for
3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and
9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
9TJKs-.....478.....0.....710.....1188
3456s-.....304.....593.....345.....1242

You’re not playing either hand. Fine.
Jeffrey is playing both hands. Fine.
There's not just one style of play that works.

I’m not going to mention any names but it’s interesting that some evidently would shun the 3456 hand while tending to embrace the 9TJK hand.

Although it’s hard to exactly compare the totals because the 9TJK hand scoops more than the 3456 hand, as you can see, the total number of whole pot equivalents won are really rather close, with the 3456 hand actually having a slight edge over the 9TJK hand.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

Buzz, as usual I appreciate your post.

I admittedly am not familiar with your simulations. My question is, does your data derive from thousands of runs of 8 random hands that always play through to the end? Becuase I wonder if that is not a realistic way of considering 3-4-5-6. In reality, if someone plays at you, chances are you are either behind or looking at 50% at best. If you are not behind, you're probably looking at a small pot. So I wonder if valuing 3-4-5-6 based upon simulations of thousands of random hands that don't fold is appropriate.

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

Great stuff.

But I think in practice the 3456 will be less bet-able and win less money.

but it did better than i would have expected.

-g

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this really a 'very standard laydown' preflop full ring?

I play 99% 6-max, so this is a genuine question. I'd like to hear your reasoning to see if it holds true at the shorthanded tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, playing LO8 with atleast 8 players at the table, your high hands need to ...

1.) Be strong already.
2.) Develop into the nuts
3.) Seen for one bet (results usually in good position)

With KJT9ds, not only is your hand not that strong to begin with, but you have very little chance of developing into the nuts. You can flop the low end of a straight, a J High or K high flush, or only two pair. You could get a good flop of 789, but even then your hand is extremley vunerable. If there is a flush on the board that is not yours, you have to dodge that, along with a pairing of the board. If a low card comes, that will also take 1/2 the pot away from you. (the same holds true when you catch a draw or a wrap draw, like the hand in question) There isnt one flop with this hand that I would feel comfortable with. (well maybe quads, but then your just a lucky fish)

Your position is decent, but there is also still a great possiblity of a raise or 2 raises behind you and having to put 2 or 3 bets in.

That's just my opinion, though. I could be wrong.

Re: Wraparound draw LO8 .5/1
 

Bullet,

I hear what you are saying and agree with the vast majority of it but there is something more to these wrap around straight draws when they hit.

I haven't entirely thought this through yet, but bear with me. I think it's worth mentioning.

The reason someone wants to see a flop with either 3,4,5,6 or 9, 10, J, Q is not so much that they win frequently, but because they win HUGE pots when they hit well...even when splitting the pot because so many people hit a part of the pot and keep chasing along.

See a cheap flop. Throw it away when you miss.

Just some thoughts,

Dave