AJ in EP early
 

empire $100.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (10 handed) converter

CO (t1285)
Button (t700)
SB (t735)
BB (t1590)
UTG (t1305)
UTG+1 (t865)
Hero (t1395)
MP1 (t1830)
MP2 (t1710)
MP3 (t850)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t60.

Flop: (t190) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t190) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t75</font>, hero?

thoughts on all streets, as well as a plan for the river.

edit to add: villain was limping a little too much.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

I don't like building a big pot in early position with aj. I probably either overlimp or fold. Once I raised and was heads up I bet that flop 100% of the time.

As it played out I call turn and reevaluate river if opponent is bad.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

why do you bet the flop? villain probably doesn't have many outs if he's behind (QT/QJ are the exceptions), and i'd like to keep the pot small. i have 4 nut outs and 2 more pretty good ones, so i'd rather not get c/r'ed off my hand.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

that was a terrible flop for your hand. the straight draws and already made draws are out there and could easily match what your opponent could have.
but he did check, i would then bet which if he called or reraised im gone.
i think your check especially after taking the lead preflop shows me you gave up on the hand already and even a fish would notice that sign then bet the turn no matter what came. so you have to fold the turn.
I would defo continue bet the flop to take it down.

EDIT: i just noticed you raised a EP limp with AJ, do I even need to comment here. i hope you must of had some read on him here.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

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i think your check especially after taking the lead preflop shows me you gave up on the hand already and even a fish would notice that sign then bet the turn no matter what came. so you have to fold the turn.


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that doesn't make any sense. if he's betting the turn with air then i want to call him.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

Preflop, limp behind. AJ is a trouble hand which is not strong with deep money and your position is bad.

I like the check on the turn, but you could also cont. bet.

I like the call of the samll bet on the turn.

Call a small bet on the river if you don't improve. Bet or raise if you make a straight. Play two pair or trips cautiously.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

I don't think I raise this pre-flop from EP so early in the tournament. Far too often I end up in a five-handed huge pot, and no idea how to bet the JTx flop.

As it stands, I think you have to bet the flop, maybe for 1/2 the pot. It will fold out a lot of the Villain's likely holdings (small pockets and connectors), but not cost you a bunch if he decides he likes his hand enough to continue. It would also probably get you a free river card, which could be pretty profitable, or at least less costly.

As for the t75 bet...I think I call, and see what he does on the river. Bet 3/4 of the pot if he checks.

Sam

Re: AJ in EP early
 

dont take that literally.
u shown weakness on the flop so whether he has something or not he will bet. Since he called you preflop he should have some face cards which match the flop very well. all you have is middle pair with good kicker.
your hand is very weak here.
Also the pot isnt very significant to the stacks anyway so i would wait for a better opportunity later on.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

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As it stands, I think you have to bet the flop, maybe for 1/2 the pot. It will fold out a lot of the Villain's likely holdings (small pockets and connectors)

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why would i want to fold those hands out? they're drawing nearly dead.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

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As it stands, I think you have to bet the flop, maybe for 1/2 the pot. It will fold out a lot of the Villain's likely holdings (small pockets and connectors)

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why would i want to fold those hands out? they're drawing nearly dead.

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Okay, my logic is faulty. A bet will fold out these hands, but that's not why I make it. I bet because I c-bet most of the time, whether I've flopped 2nd pair, the nuts or nothing at all.

Also a bet tells me where I am without costing me a lot of chips. If he calls, and checks the turn, I can check behind. If he folds, I win the pot. Each of these are acceptable outcomes. When you check behind, you've lost control of the hand. He bets the turn, and you don't know what he's got. Air is a good possibility, but so is a hand that has you drawing thin. But since he has become the aggressor, you can't find out without raising here, or calling him down. I hate being passive.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

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When you check behind, you've lost control of the hand.

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this is the 2nd time in a couple of days someone has said this in response to one of my hands. it's rapidly becoming my least favorite poker cliche. i'm playing the hand to win the most/lose the least, not to have some macho "i must always bet" thing.

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I bet because I c-bet most of the time, whether I've flopped 2nd pair, the nuts or nothing at all.


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i think is a reasonable point. i would bet air here, and i would bet a hand like AK. but i'm going to check some hands behind, and i like to do it with medium strength hands, that i want to showdown, especially when i have some outs. yeah, it's exploitable if you know that, but those situations don't come up often (and i wouldn't play it the same after showing it down once) and few people know my sn.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

Preflop raise is pretty questionable, like a lot of people said. I think it's better than calling, though, because calling frequently leads to a multiway pot OOP with AJo. I think it may be folding &gt; raising &gt; calling, but maybe raising's best.

The flop check behind is good as long as you call the turn bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. You got mad at another poster for alluding to who has the lead in the hand, but I think it's a pretty important concept, especially because your opponents consider it. In this case, after you give up the lead on a draw-heavy flop like that, villain could easily be bluffing or semi-bluffing or value betting/protecting a T or a worse J or a bunch of crap.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

fold preflop.
call turn and see what he does on river.
u check to induce a bluff, call... raising would be plenty viable if this was deep, but i dont see the point w/ such a small stacks... youre not putting pressure on better hands.. in a deep situation u can raise here on the 2 way bet and possibly get him off a K cause he has to fear a big river bet, but here hell prob just scoot the rest of his money in there w/ KQ... so call.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

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Preflop raise is pretty questionable, like a lot of people said. I think it's better than calling, though, because calling frequently leads to a multiway pot OOP with AJo. I think it may be folding &gt; raising &gt; calling, but maybe raising's best.


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i'm not in love with the raise. fold &gt; raise &gt; call sounds right to me except i thought the limper was weaker than he should be in that spot and i was happy to isolate him. i think folding would still be fine.

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The flop check behind is good as long as you call the turn bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. You got mad at another poster for alluding to who has the lead in the hand



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didn't mean any ill will. me and sam go back.

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, but I think it's a pretty important concept, especially because your opponents consider it.

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i agree, it's important. but the idea that one must take/keep the lead for its own sake is what grates on me.

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In this case, after you give up the lead on a draw-heavy flop like that, villain could easily be bluffing or semi-bluffing or value betting/protecting a T or a worse J or a bunch of crap.

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agreed. which is a big reason i checked the flop.

incidentally, i think i "keep control of the pot" much better by checking than by betting. if i bet and get c/r'ed, i've lost all control and have to fold what may be the best hand, and i certainly have some outs. if i bet and get called, i'll check behind on the turn, and then i'll be faced with a relatively large river bet and i'll have no idea where i stand and i'll usually fold, possibly with the best hand.

checking keeps the pot small and helps me get to showdown / see if i improve cheaply.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

Re: Losing control of the hand

FWIW, I think I agreed with your other post, but I'd have to go back and check.

Yes, there are times when it's okay to let the villain take the lead, but I don't think this is one of them. If you could say with some certainty that you are WA/WB, I could understand this line, but you have no earthly idea where you stand. You could be miles ahead, miles behind, or neck and neck. By going passive, you are simply putting chips into the pot with a marginal hand against an opponent with an incredibly wide range. Maybe it is a problem with my mindset, but I don't want to sit around calling bets and hoping that: a) I'm ahead; and b) I stay ahead.

Your point about controlling pot size is a good one, but in this situation I think I'd rather control the pot.

Sam

Re: AJ in EP early
 

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By going passive, you are simply putting chips into the pot with a marginal hand against an opponent with an incredibly wide range.

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That's a good thing isn't it? Would you rather put chips in the pot against hands that have us beat and get nothing else out of small PPs and SCs that may consider a bluff? This is a great spot to try and get to showdown against as wide a range as possible.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

Preflop if you play the hand a raise is the best option in my
opinion. Limping seems to be the weakest play.

I actually like a flop check. What difference does it make
if the action round is the flop or turn?

The way I look at your hand when villian bets the turn
you're way ahead, way behind, or if you reraise enough
you might be able to eliminate the best hand. Given that's
it early in the tournament I would opt to keep the pot small
and call the turn bet and call most reasonable river bets.

Bruce

Re: AJ in EP early
 

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By going passive, you are simply putting chips into the pot with a marginal hand against an opponent with an incredibly wide range.

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That's a good thing isn't it? Would you rather put chips in the pot against hands that have us beat and get nothing else out of small PPs and SCs that may consider a bluff? This is a great spot to try and get to showdown against as wide a range as possible.

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Hmmmm. Good point.

I think I'm changing my mind on this hand, but am having trouble coming up with what exactly I've learned. Are you essentially treating this as a WA/WB situation? I suppose that makes some sense, but the drawlicious board made me think betting was the right choice.

And if you simply call, he can make life very tough on you with a good-sized river bet. If you goal is to get to the river cheaply, I think the best way to do it is to bet the flop.

Re: AJ in EP early
 

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Are you essentially treating this as a WA/WB situation? I suppose that makes some sense, but the drawlicious board made me think betting was the right choice.


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it's sort of like WA/WB but not quite. if he has QJ/QT then he has a ton of outs. beyond those hands, he is WB if he's behind. the next best draw is Tx, with 5 outs. (or Q8, but i don't think he has that).

it's also not really WAWB because we're almost never WB. some likely hands and our number of outs:

- KJ: 7
- KT: 9
- TT/JJ/KK: 4
- AA: 2+4 chop

so it's not a ton of outs, but there are 4 outs to the nuts. i think it's a reverse implied odds problem more than anything - if we bet, he only puts in money ahead.

on the other hand, i agree that he made it easy on me with the tiny turn bet. if he bets 140 into 190, then i am kicking myself, and similarly if he bets full pot on a blank river.

i don't think that betting the flop is bad here, btw. i think checking is a little better but that you don't lose much by betting.