Two Plus Two Older Archives

Two Plus Two Older Archives (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/index.php)
-   Politics (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=39)
-   -   If I were a terrorist... (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=399661)

coffeecrazy1 12-16-2005 01:33 PM

If I were a terrorist...
 
Would I like the Patriot Act, or dislike it?

I honestly don't know, because, on the one hand, I suppose the PA does make it harder for terrorists to harm Americans on our soil.

But...at the same time, it also successfully alters the American way of life, shifting us more toward a less free, authoritarian state.

So, which is it? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

BCPVP 12-16-2005 01:34 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
[ QUOTE ]
But...at the same time, it also successfully alters the American way of life, shifting us more toward a less free, authoritarian state.

[/ QUOTE ]
Islamic terrorists aren't looking for just any ole authoritarian state.

tylerdurden 12-16-2005 01:40 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Islamic terrorists aren't looking for just any ole authoritarian state.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. A lot of people have problems with particular authoritarian states, not because they oppose authoritarianism in principle, but because *they* aren't the ones in charge of the particular state they have a problem with.

12-16-2005 02:02 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
... I would hate it, because it makes it harder to kill Americans.

The federal government should be doing everything possible domestically to prevent terrorism, including adopting the following: absolutely secure borders, denial of entry visas to citizens of certain countries, racial/religious profiling, domestic wiretapping and other surveillance, infiltration of Islamic religious groups, national ID card, no-fly lists, extraordinary renditions of terror suspects, etc.

The liberal/civil libertarian Chicken Littles are irrelevant. Without security, there can be no liberty. We should have avoided this Iraq quagmire, and spent the $350B on domestic security initiatives.

tolbiny 12-16-2005 02:08 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
"I would hate it, because it makes it harder to kill Americans."

Eitehr the terrorists are imcompetant or killing americans isn't really their primary goal. Getting people into this country isn't that hard, and killing people isn't that hard. They don't do the second very often.
Why is that?

theweatherman 12-16-2005 02:19 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Without security, there can be no liberty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, if only there was a quote out there, maybe by a founding father, that goes against this ridiculous idea. . .

oh wait, got one:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Ben Franklin

Thanks Ben, your wisdom rings true then and now. I'm so glad you can make these enemies of liberty (aptly named as a despot) look stupid with their silly tyrannical ideas.

12-16-2005 02:27 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Getting people into this country isn't that hard, and killing people isn't that hard. They don't do the second very often. Why is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. It is widely believed that the Al Qaeda network has been disrupted. Part of this is due to international efforts (Afghanistan, international intelligence gathering, etc.) However, they have also been domestically disrupted. You tend not to hear a lot about the latter, because of the general practice of law enforcement to not comment about ongoing investigations and/or sources & uses of intelligence. However, some reports have been published, e.g. Oregon training camps, Lackawanna group, etc. Additionally, the relationship between international and domestic intelligence gathering blurs--for example, the Times article noted that the NSA wiretaps of international calls accelerated after Abu Zubayda was captured in Pakistan, and his computer showed contacts with persons in the united states.

2. Al Qaeda has historically shown a preference for "large" demonstrations of terror--e.g., WTC1, WTC2, Bojinka plot, African embassies, etc. It took them 8 years to get from WTC1 to WTC2. These operations can take a while. Just because we havent seen a major act of domestic terrorism in the country since 9/11 doesnt mean the threat isnt real.

You civil libertarians hate this stuff, and as a small government conservative, Im a bit leery as well. But im a pragmatist, and I recognize that without security there can be no liberty. As of today, young muslim males are more likely to be terrorists than any other group. Is it unfortunate that we may infringe on some patriotic muslims in this country? Yes. Do I have a problem with doing so if it would greatly increase the likelihood that we coudl prevent another 9/11 attach? No.

Easy to say as a non-Muslim, perhaps, but c'est la vie. The Europeans have a much greater problem with their domestic muslims, because the horse is already out of the barn--they're in legally, bringing in their extended families, and reproducing at a higher birthrate than non-Muslims. The United States should view the muslim population with suspicion, and avoid the European road to ruin. Patriot Act helps us keep tabs on these people.

theweatherman 12-16-2005 02:32 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Easy to say as a non-Muslim, perhaps, but c'est la vie. The Europeans have a much greater problem with their domestic muslims, because the horse is already out of the barn--they're in legally, bringing in their extended families, and reproducing at a higher birthrate than non-Muslims. The United States should view the muslim population with suspicion, and avoid the European road to ruin. Patriot Act helps us keep tabs on these people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good God what the hell are you talking about? Under no circumstances should America keep tabs on any of its citizens unless they are being investigated under due process fo the law. Anythign else would go against the very fundementals of our national ideals.

Americans should never, ever surrender our hard fought for freedom in order to feel safe. As a free nation we face risks, but this is the price of liberty. Your line of thinking leads down a very short path to tyranny. I wont just sit around and wait for you to take us there.

tolbiny 12-16-2005 02:36 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
"2. Al Qaeda has historically shown a preference for "large" demonstrations of terror"

This is exactly my point- killing americans isn't the primary goal, it is simply an effective way of getting mass publicity.

sam h 12-16-2005 02:43 PM

Re: If I were a terrorist...
 
[ QUOTE ]
However, they have also been domestically disrupted. You tend not to hear a lot about the latter, because of the general practice of law enforcement to not comment about ongoing investigations and/or sources & uses of intelligence. However, some reports have been published, e.g. Oregon training camps, Lackawanna group, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

But would you agree that from the very scant amount we know about domestic enforcement of Al Qaeda activities, is is impossible to ascertain (a) the degree to which the group's activities in the US indeed have been "disrupted" overall and (b) the degree to which the provisions of the Patriot Act has done anything to help?

I don't think the public can get past pure speculation on this one, because we are not privy to inside information.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:17 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.