not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

sorry if this has been discussed before or is nothing new...

but I was wondering if holding back with KK pre-flop and not pushing when you get re-raised is a better strategy?

that is, when your stack and that of the villain is relatively deep, you pick up KK...you raise...someone re-raises you...and you just call, instead of re-raising and/or getting it all in before the flop.

Is there anything wrong with waiting to see if the flop contains an Ace? Or is this considered weak?

If you push pre-flop and get called by Ace-blank, the villain has 5 cards to hit his Ace...

is my thinking faulty? Weak-tight? get it in there when you have the best of it, and let the poker gods handle the rest?

Would this be a better strategy when talking about tournaments and not no-limit cash games?

Thanks!

Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

IMO your conclusion is right but your reasoning wrong. The reason to just call with KK here is because if you push then a decent player calls with AA/KK and gets away from anything else - if you call you can c/r all in on the flop - you still lose the same amount to AA, but win more more QQ,JJ etc.

Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

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If you push pre-flop and get called by Ace-blank, the villain has 5 cards to hit his Ace...


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If you push pre-flop and villain calls with A-blank then do your happy dance ... then settle in for a long night of stacking the idiot.

Anyways, against decent opposition, pushing pre-flop folds out everything you beat (QQ/JJ/AK) and you just get called by AA. It's often better to just call and extract more value from those hands (you lose your stack to AA either way).

mj

Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

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IMO your conclusion is right but your reasoning wrong. The reason to just call with KK here is because if you push then a decent player calls with AA/KK and gets away from anything else - if you call you can c/r all in on the flop - you still lose the same amount to AA, but win more more QQ,JJ etc.

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this is what I was getting at....thanks for putting it so succinctly!

but what if you're playing against fishy players who will call an all-in with AK-AT to any mid PP? I know in the long run we're way ahead doing this...but is there anything to say for just seeing the flop against BAD players (not just decent ones) to lower your variance on being sucked on against A-blank?

Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

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IMO your conclusion is right but your reasoning wrong. The reason to just call with KK here is because if you push then a decent player calls with AA/KK and gets away from anything else - if you call you can c/r all in on the flop - you still lose the same amount to AA, but win more more QQ,JJ etc.

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this is what I was getting at....thanks for putting it so succinctly!

but what if you're playing against fishy players who will call an all-in with AK-AT to any mid PP? I know in the long run we're way ahead doing this...but is there anything to say for just seeing the flop against BAD players (not just decent ones) to lower your variance on being sucked on against A-blank?

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You don't really lower your "bad" variance by doing this. Getting all in as a 4-1 favorite consistently is FAR favorable to "just calling" preflop and hoping the guy doesn't spike an ace. Also, how do you know he has an ace? I rarely go all in with KK preflop just because most people at the limits I play won't be calling all-in with hands that I beat. If I knew they'd call AT-AK and like 88-QQ, I'd push all day and night. If you are willing to give up such HUGE EV opportunities then NL is definitely not the game for you. It will be very rare that you get your money all in as a better favorite than KK to Ace-Rag or small PP preflop.

For example, say you held T9 and your opponent held KK. The flop was T93 no backdoor flush possible. You'd only have 72% equity - would you wait until the river to lower your variance, or happily go all in now? Here's a hint, your edge in this situation is less than 1% better than getting KK all in vs. AT preflop.
-James

Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO your conclusion is right but your reasoning wrong. The reason to just call with KK here is because if you push then a decent player calls with AA/KK and gets away from anything else - if you call you can c/r all in on the flop - you still lose the same amount to AA, but win more more QQ,JJ etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what I was getting at....thanks for putting it so succinctly!

but what if you're playing against fishy players who will call an all-in with AK-AT to any mid PP? I know in the long run we're way ahead doing this...but is there anything to say for just seeing the flop against BAD players (not just decent ones) to lower your variance on being sucked on against A-blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't really lower your "bad" variance by doing this. Getting all in as a 4-1 favorite consistently is FAR favorable to "just calling" preflop and hoping the guy doesn't spike an ace. Also, how do you know he has an ace? I rarely go all in with KK preflop just because most people at the limits I play won't be calling all-in with hands that I beat. If I knew they'd call AT-AK and like 88-QQ, I'd push all day and night. If you are willing to give up such HUGE EV opportunities then NL is definitely not the game for you. It will be very rare that you get your money all in as a better favorite than KK to Ace-Rag or small PP preflop.

For example, say you held T9 and your opponent held KK. The flop was T93 no backdoor flush possible. You'd only have 72% equity - would you wait until the river to lower your variance, or happily go all in now? Here's a hint, your edge in this situation is less than 1% better than getting KK all in vs. AT preflop.
-James

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Good points....and yes, I really have no problem pushing it all-in pre-flop with KK at any time. I'll take my 4-1 against Ace blank anytime. I was just wondering if I was giving anything up by not being so push-happy.

Thanks for the replies!

Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

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If you push pre-flop and villain calls with A-blank then do your happy dance

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Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

As many others have pointed, the real reason to push preflop is you rarely get called by worse hands, whereas if you get QQ and JJ pot stuck on raggedy boards, you have a much better chance of stacking them.

Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

youre on the right track now but youre not 4-1 against Ax.
youre about high 2.5ish? to 1. but nevertheless ya against Ax you win the clear majority.

Re: not pushing pre-flop with KK
 

I'll add one more reason for just calling.

Say the betting is: villain raises, you reraise, villain reraises you. Depending on what you know about your opponent, you may now be pretty sure he does have AA. If you're really sure, you should fold, but since you're rarely that sure you can call, and see whether you can flop a set. For this to work, though, the stacks have to be VERY deep.