JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

No real reads on villian as I was recently moved.

I have JJ and 3300 chips.
blinds 25/50

2 folds , villian raises to 150 , 2 folds

I make it 400 to go. Everyone folds back to villian who calls.

Flop comes A58 all clubs. I have the J of clubs. Pot is 875. Villian has about 1250 left.

Villian checks to me.

What's your move and why?

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

Are you acting last?

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

My bad, forgot to include he checked.

The blinds folded so it's just me and him.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

Well then it would help to know his action seeing as how it is first...

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

Bet 500 - if he had a hand he'd have to protect it unless he had the Kc or Qc w/ it (like AK w/ Kc) - if he pushes back then I'm hard pressed to think of a hand I'm ahead of or can outdraw and have to lay it down (if you've seen him pop w/ air then you could factor that in, I assume w/o reads that he hasn't been out of line). Can't see checking as I'm vulnerable and have to call any reasonable turn bet he'd lead with - betting allows me to set the price and may take the pot down right there. If he calls I'll look to check it down.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet 500 - if he had a hand he'd have to protect it unless he had the Kc or Qc w/ it (like AK w/ Kc) - if he pushes back then I'm hard pressed to think of a hand I'm ahead of or can outdraw and have to lay it down (if you've seen him pop w/ air then you could factor that in, I assume w/o reads that he hasn't been out of line). Can't see checking as I'm vulnerable and have to call any reasonable turn bet he'd lead with - betting allows me to set the price and may take the pot down right there. If he calls I'll look to check it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he pushes back, its only ~750 more for me to call. The pot is 750+875+500=2125 so i'm getting 2.8 to 1. With 10 outs I can probably assume are good... I think I pretty much have to call as I'm getting about .8 of that 2.8 as overlay. Nevermind that he could be bluffing (though it seems unlikey I guess, then again its a 20+2).

I agree with your line though, that's probably what I would do, maybe 600 instead but whatever.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

just realized I didn't calculate pot odds correctly, forgot his 500 to match my bet. Just strengthens the argument for calling anyway.

So I figure I might as well go ahead and push right away.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

You end up pushing? I'm guessing he tried to play for set value or has an AQ, AJ.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

That may be the widest range ever gators. "He either has a pair or AQ+.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

Can I get a flop line from anyone? I'm saying that I think my best move is a big bet like pushing, or I suppose maybe 900. What would you do here?

I'll post what I did on the flop, and results later.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

What is villian's chip count before the hand?

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

I don't think he's sitting on AA or KK (and maybe QQ) as he just smooth called your reraise preflop and with his stack I'd think a preflop push would be more likely. I'd put him on AJ-AK, 77+. I'd bet ~2/3 of the pot, 600 and plan on calling a push. The only hand I'm REALLY afraid of is AK or AQ with the K or Q of clubs.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is villian's chip count before the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cmon dude, don't be lazy and do some simple math, its in the OP. He called 400 chips PF, and has 1250 behind after checking to me on the flop. So 1650

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he's sitting on AA or KK (and maybe QQ) as he just smooth called your reraise preflop and with his stack I'd think a preflop push would be more likely. I'd put him on AJ-AK, 77+. I'd bet ~2/3 of the pot, 600 and plan on calling a push. The only hand I'm REALLY afraid of is AK or AQ with the K or Q of clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that AA/KK or QQ neccessarily pushes back. Personally if I were villian I'd smooth call with those hands and try to get the other guy to committ to my all in on the flop. Moreso with AA/KK.

If you put him on an ace as about a half to one third of his range, why would you bet? That just plays right into what he wants me to do as he'll obviously push back, especially with AQ,AJ,AK, and maybe AT.

The point I've brought up earlier is if you plan on calling a push no matter what, why not just push and make him possibly have to make a difficult decision? Maybe I'll get a non club high pair to fold?

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

if you are betting this flop, and you should, it has to be a push so that villian doesn't have the "illusion" of fold equity. obviously there is very little calling you here that you beat, but the idea is that you don't get called and don't give him a chance to bluff you off of the best hand on the turn.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you are betting this flop, and you should, it has to be a push so that villian doesn't have the "illusion" of fold equity. obviously there is very little calling you here that you beat, but the idea is that you don't get called and don't give him a chance to bluff you off of the best hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWYD here?

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

Given the size of villains stack i would have made it 550ish pre, so that if I decided to bet the flop I wouldnt have these weird stack size issues.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are betting this flop, and you should, it has to be a push so that villian doesn't have the "illusion" of fold equity. obviously there is very little calling you here that you beat, but the idea is that you don't get called and don't give him a chance to bluff you off of the best hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWYD here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the only options are to (a) push the flop, or (b) to check it through and fold to a bet on a non-club turn/call or overpush to a bet on a club turn.

Obviously the worst case scenario on a flop push is you get called with AK/AQ with a club kicker, but there are also a lot of good/decent results: (1) folding out hands like clubless QQ/KK; (2) folding out hands like 99/TT before you give them a chance to bluff you off your hand on the turn; (3) getting it in against Ax (w/ no club) with 11 outs twice...

so i guess i push the flop.

edit: wanted to add, good hand, ive got to pack up stuff and head home for the holidays, but i'll be checking on this later to see what people had to say.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

Good news its a Pary 20+2 with blinds at 25/50 and the tourney is still full of dummys. Whatever you bet I don't see you getting away from it. I would bet $1250 and hopefully he realizes that you have a really strong hand and his A7 is no good.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can I get a flop line from anyone? I'm saying that I think my best move is a big bet like pushing, or I suppose maybe 900. What would you do here?

I'll post what I did on the flop, and results later.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay here goes.

Alternatives, pushing, betting say 1/2, 2/3 or pot and checking.

judging by the action so far, villains range is a little foggy since the only info we have is his initial preflop 3 BB raise and his call to your reraise, then a check on the flop. This board has to be a little scary to villain for the same reason it is to you.

Scenario 1) Let's say villain has KK or QQ (1 club). The A would be intimidating to him but the draw to the nut or nearly nut flush as well as having a high pair could be a check/raise in waiting rather than betting out and having you fold (he is after all starting to become a short stack and hoping to double up). Don't think KK or QQ with a club would fold, so you are WB.

scenario 2) Let's say he has KK or QQ without a club. This is a spot where a push may be able to force villain off his hand. A on board and 3 to a suit.

scenario 3) Let's say villain has lower pair than your J's with a club. You are WA and a push could possibly scare him away (though with pot at 875 and him having to call off 1250 a donkey may think he has outs with club and call).

scenario 4) Ax, 1 club, he's gonna call no matter what (judging from preflop action) thinking he has enough outs if you have better Ax, leaving you with only 10 outs (close to 1.75:1, not favorable)

scenario 5) he has Ax, no club. some chance that he'll lay this down. Reads would help to know what he would do here, again this is scary board for him (although he can't possibly think you were re-raising with suited connectors, and would know you were on a draw). If he has strong A he'll probably call anything.

I think of all the hands that are possible, this early in the tournament, the only hands that call a push are a strong Ax, a set or a flush draw with KK or QQ (2 pair not likely from preflop action unless he is complete donkey).

I think a push makes your hand look a little weak like Ax and that you are trying to protect it and if he has AK, maybe AQ especially with club, he'll call. You can either keep this pot small or try and take it away right now. Right choice is probably to keep pot small, but I bet 500 and reevaluate from opponents play (probably going to call any push, because after all i am a donkey).

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

I'll reply without reading further...

I think a 600 or 700 bet shows you have a decent hand and that he is playing for the rest of his stack. A push maybe induces a spite call from a weak Ace, which you are behind, or gives him a chance to get away and look to play back at you in the future.

Half his stack feels like the right line, you want his chips and aren't afraid of a reraise.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

Awesome, I love all these responses. As I said, I pretty much took the bet big (specifically 1k, though I should have just pushed, same difference) line. I figured I was at worst on the 11 out redraw, and had a good chance to make him fold.

You're probably right MLG, I should have probably raised to 500 or something, though that seems a little strong and I didn't want him to fold PF.


I'll post result later tonight, just want to give some more people a chance to respond. The result was actually fairly surprising.

Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2
 

Ok well since I guess no one has any interest in this hand.
I bet 1k, he pushed back for 250 more or something. I guess I should have pushed, whatever, same difference.

I was surprised to see him flip over QQ, one club, and his hand is good.

I think his call/push is awful. He has to think I have a good chance of having AK or really AQ or AJ, in which case he's not getting the odds for his redraw. I guess I could also have the made flush or Kx of spades. Anyone else agree?