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-   -   Question in Ciaffone's PL and NL book (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=403755)

Chaostracize 12-22-2005 10:55 PM

Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
I'm not positive if this has been posted here before, but I'm guessing it has; I want to come back to it briefly.

All important characters have "about a grand". You have 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the BB. It's a full table, and it's a 6-way unraised pot.

Flop comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Pot = 60.

SB leads for 60, you coldcall, 2 folds to "sound player" who limped in MP after one limper who raises to 170. Everyone, including SB fold to you.

Ciaffone strongly recommends a fold here. The argument he makes is that JJ-AA is raising preflop. 99-TT is raising more on the flop to shut out draws. And two pair is "remote".

No one here would fold here right? I almost can't even imagine folding this on the flop to a super nit. Is there anyone you can think of who'd you honestly fold this to one raise?

Edited to add: If this were a super nit, what is your plan for the hand?

Second edit to add: If the reasoning to raise so much with 99-TT is to knock out draws, wouldn't a set be more likely to do that since it will be more top heavy if a straight hits?

This question reeks of "look at what a good fold I made" instead of a constructive breakdown of a hand.

FoxwoodsFiend 12-22-2005 10:59 PM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not positive if this has been posted here before, but I'm guessing it has; I want to come back to it briefly.

All important characters have "about a grand". You have 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the BB. It's a full table, and it's a 6-way unraised pot.

Flop comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Pot = 60.

SB leads for 60, you coldcall, 2 folds to "sound player" who limped in MP after one limper who raises to 170. Everyone, including SB fold to you.

Ciaffone strongly recommends a fold here. The argument he makes is that JJ-AA is raising preflop. 99-TT is raising more on the flop to shut out draws. And two pair is "remote".

No one here would fold here right? I almost can't even imagine folding this on the flop to a super nit. Is there anyone you can think of who'd you honestly fold this to one raise?

Edite to add: If this were a super nit, what is your plan for the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know the date of the publication, but my guess is that these days people tend to bluff oesd more often now than they did when this book came out.

Chaostracize 12-22-2005 11:01 PM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
97.

FoxwoodsFiend 12-22-2005 11:03 PM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
[ QUOTE ]
97.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then yeah, definitely more semi-bluffing these days. I know because when I was 13, me and my friends never really got that aggressive with draws.

Chaostracize 12-22-2005 11:12 PM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
If we take "sound" to mean "nit" can we assume that they won't be raising a draw here?

FoxwoodsFiend 12-22-2005 11:16 PM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
[ QUOTE ]
If we take "sound" to mean "nit" can we assume that they won't be raising a draw here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. But we can also assume that it's possible they don't like raising with TT or JJ because "overcards always come." If they're really a nit, you can put some more $$$ in there and then comfortably fold to an all-in

Chaostracize 12-22-2005 11:19 PM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm glad we had this talk.

HiatusOver 12-22-2005 11:40 PM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
[ QUOTE ]
"97"

Then yeah, definitely more semi-bluffing these days. I know because when I was 13, me and my friends never really got that aggressive with draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could see folding bottom set here back in 1997, but only because I would have been too stoned back then to realize I flopped a set anyways.

shaniac 12-22-2005 11:47 PM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
[ QUOTE ]
I could see folding bottom set here back in 1997, but only because I would have been too stoned back then to realize I flopped a set anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the sets they have today are WAY stronger than they were back in '97, so it all makes sense.

RikaKazak 12-23-2005 12:07 AM

Re: Question in Ciaffone\'s PL and NL book
 
6 max, I just find it hard to fold. Myabe it's cause we're more aggressive now days. But I think you see 99-TT oesd and enough to call and ck raise all in on turn, or lead turn. Now if the stacks were bigger, then I would play it differently. But for 100 bb's I find this hard to fold in 6 max.


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