A question for Christians AND atheists
 

Christians: (if you weren't always a Christian) What caused you to believe in Christianity?

Atheists: (if you were non-atheist at an earlier point) What caused you to believe what you believe about theology?


For the record, I don't have a hidden atheist agenda here, and I'm not trying to start a war (although those seem to happen regardless), I just want to get an idea for what causes people to believe and others to reject.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

From non-atheist to atheist here:

Elementary, observation, dear Dr Watson.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

"What caused you to believe what you believe about theology?"

Probably the ridiculousness of it: an invisible man in the sky, a netherworld of fire and brimstone, the son of God immaculately conceived and magically resurrected, a burning bush speaking to Moses, etc.

Also the fact that so many religious beliefs mirror the circumstances of the people who had them leads me to believe that those religions and their God/gods were conceived in the minds of people, rather than people being conceived by God/gods.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

I have decided that Athiesm is a foolish position.

I haven't decided if believeing or practicing a religion is foolishness. I'm leaning towards that it is not.

Stu

A Very Sincere Reply
 

I was raised Catholic, went to CCD school up until my confirmation. My family wasn't overly religious, but we did go to church on all the major holidays. My mom and grandmother believe in God and I have an aunt and uncle who are very religious. So how did I fall off the religious bandwagon?

Well, like Luckyme points out I did some serious thinking on my own. Prior to this, I was either too young or too busy partying to think much about it. I knew there were things I didn't understand, but like most believers, I didn't question them. I just assumed there must be a God and things were the way my religion said they were.

After my father passed away I started thinking more about death and religion. And one day it hit me like a ton of bricks! I realized everything I believed about religion was heresay. For the first time in my life I asked questions I never dared to ask before. Scratch that... For the first time in my life I started seeking ANSWERS that I never dared to answer before.

What about that evolution thing? - Did it make sense that there was a man walking around on earth before there was a woman? - Do I really believe that men used to live to be 900 years old? - What of all those contradictions in the bible? What about all of the other far-fetched stories?

I felt like a blasphomer asking these question even to just myself. I was the type who got chills whenever someone screamed Goddammit or Jesus Christ! I think I was a teenager before I ever took the Lord's name in vain and the few times I did, I did I always said a silent prayer of apology.

However, slowly but surely the answers started dawning on me. I got chills. THERE IS no God dummy! There never WAS a God. At once I was relieved, scared, and pissed. Relieved, because I finally sensed the truth. Scared, because I was now all of a sudden living in a different world. Reality as I knew it would never be the same. Pissed, because I had been lied to for all these years and felt like an idiot.

But at the same time I felt an almost eerie sense of calm. It all started making sense and fell into place like a jig-saw puzzle. That's why a precious baby dies of SIDS. That's why a sweet innocent child suffers and dies from cancer. That's why terrible things sometimes happen to the best and nicest of people and good things sometimes happen to bad people. There IS no God watching over us every step of the way! The world began making sense now!

At first, it was all a terrible shock. A very scary realization. That's why guys like BluffThis and sifmole don't get it and never will. They think people like me ask questions because we ENJOY mocking their beliefs. Nothing could be further from the truth for me. I want to know HOW they hold onto their beliefs in the face of everything I think I know to be true today. How do they maintain their beliefs based on all I know to be untrue and unproven? I want to know if they have asked the tough questions and more importantly, if they would be willing to face the even tougher answers if they came. The last answer at least, has become all too clear. They most certainly would not! But the fact remains...

If anyone could ever off me logical reason to return to faith, I would gladly change my mind. And that's something a believer like BluffThis will never be willing to believe.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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What caused you to believe in Christianity?

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Going to church and listening to sermons about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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I know to be untrue

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Can you prove to me that Jesus was not the Son of God?

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all started making sense and fell into place like a jig-saw puzzle

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Where did the meaning of life fall into this jig-saw puzzle?

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If anyone could ever off me logical reason to return to faith

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Because life without afterlife is awfully pointless.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

Here we go again... This is where I come off sounding like the big bad sarcastic atheist. It's just that your answers offer not one bit of logical reasoning.




<font color="blue">Can you prove to me that Jesus was not the Son of God? </font>

No. Can you prove to me the pizza I'm about to eat does NOT have anchovies on it?

<font color="blue">Because life without afterlife is awfully pointless. </font>

So is a stillborn baby. So are many other things pointless. But because something is pointless, does not make some other alternative true.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Can you prove to me the pizza I'm about to eat does NOT have anchovies on it?


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No, I can't. And that is why I would never claim that I knew for certain that your pizza does not have anchovies on it.

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But because something is pointless, does not make some other alternative true

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I wasn't offering you proof as to what is true and what isn't. You asked for a reason to believe in something and I gave you probably the most universal and fundamental one, one that forms the foundation of my belief in Christ.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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If anyone could ever off me logical reason to return to faith

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Because life without afterlife is awfully pointless.

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I don't see the logic in your answer, Riddick. Why do things have to have a meaning??? Because it values you more? Anyway there is absolutely no reasons for things needing to have meaning; to say the contrary is a non-rational prejudice.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Because life without afterlife is awfully pointless.

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you asked for a reason to believe in something and I gave you probably the most universal and fundamental one, one that forms the foundation of my belief in Christ.

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Absolutely! I don't know anyone who believes because of what Aquinas said. I know lots ( my family situation is like Lestat's only likely larger) that believe based on versions of this.."Do you believe in an afterlife?" "Yes, there has to be more than this."

IOW, the bulk of belief is psychologically driven, not research-based. Another common one is the need for moral guardrails, the "we'll all turn into Sons of Sam" fear (hmmm, ok, scratch him) in spite of Japan and europe's example.

So, if you're a person that runs more on logic and seem to have no problem finding moral solidity without threats or rewards, and find the love and caring of those around you has a lot of meaning the 'need' for a religion is minimal to non-existant.

I was around 8 when "who made me - good made me. who made god - god always was and always will be." sounded a bit soft to me. Around 13 I ran across Frasers "the golden bough" and the cultural lights came on, I could understand how there could be all this religion even if there were no god, and of course the xtrian precursors were obvious.

I'm an atheist today only secondarily because of the 'no evidence' or 'logical conflicts' reasons. Mine's based on morality issues, to try to state part of it simply, I have the reverse-NR view, there can be no morality if it is absolute or coerced.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

<font color="blue">No, I can't. And that is why I would never claim that I knew for certain that your pizza does not have anchovies on it. </font>

Why would you claim Christ is the son of God and not that there are anchovies on my pizza? What is the difference?

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Why would you claim Christ is the son of God

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Because the Gospels, among others, said (wrote) so, and I believe them.

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and not that there are anchovies on my pizza?

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I never said there were or were not anchovies on your pizza. I said I wouldn't claim with utter certainty that there were not, simply because it didn't seem possible or make sense to me that the anchovies existed.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

See this:

<font color="blue">Can you prove to me that Jesus was not the Son of God? </font>

Sounds like you're putting the onus on me to disprove something that you have thought long and hard about and have come to know as fact, when this:

<font color="blue">Because the Gospels, among others, said (wrote) so, and I believe them. </font>

Would have been a much simpler and more accurate answer.

Why not just say the latter in the first place, instead of insuinating that if your belief cannot be disproved it must mean I am the one using faulty reasoning?

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Because life without afterlife is awfully pointless.

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Please elaborate.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

This is a personal, perhaps too personal, account of my conversion to atheism. If it's a little melodramatic, that's probably cause I've had a few beers.

I'm a recently converted atheist. As a youth I was a devout Christian raised in a Protestant household. I didn't just numbly follow church teachings, I had a very close and sacred relationship with God at certain points in my life. There were times when I felt without a doubt that Someone up there existed.

After my fundamentalist youth I broke from strict Christian teachings. Instead, I felt that all religions had something to say about God and gave similar guidelines for life. I studied Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism, and after it all I thought I was gaining spiritual understanding. I felt that Christianity was only a limited version of Truth and as I explored further I came to believe in a different God. I couldn't describe this Being but I felt for certain It existed. I saw all religions as just man's way of explaining what was evident in the human spirit. For me, no hell could exist and life could not be as meaningless as Christianity makes it out to be. Therefore, I did consider the Hindu cycle of life as a possible posthumous explanation.

Anyway, I've gotten off topic, but I'm trying to explain the evolution of my thought, if anyone even cares. By this point I had started reading philosophy, and Nietzsche was one philosopher who always struck me as fascinating. I had read him when I was religious and had failed to see the strength of his arguments. I had also failed to seriously consider evolution, and the psychology of my faith. The latter is the biggest reason I am an atheist now. I had to think very carefully about what religion was doing to my psyche.

During every hard time in my life I would always turn to God. But in my healthiest and most vibrant times, God was only in the deepest recesses of my mind. But as time ticked and life got harder, God would keep moving up to the forefront of my mind, so that eventually I could not allow myself any healthy or fun times. I was focused only on the negative aspects of life. There is no question in my mind that religion did this to me. It Forced me to be compassionate; if I was enjoying myself I thought of others who weren't as fortunate. And because of this miserable state I was in, I wanted everyone else to have to feel the same way. I thought it was the Right thing to do, and all should do it.

As a result, I thought all life was meaningless suffering. People say religion offers an explanation for this. To me now, religion as an explanation is absurd. It's a crutch, nothing more. And it nearly killed my desire for life. It made me a weak and pathetic individual, incapable of participating in the affairs of daily life. I was very depressed for a long time. Finally, after realizing that there is no God I can live a fruitful life.

Faith and religion were invented by people who felt the same weaknesses I did and we all do from time to time. It's comforting to think there is an all-knowing being out there. It's not reasonable, though. I'd rather live honestly than blissfully. Then again, my religious days were anything but blissful.

As I say, thank God there isn't one.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

I take it you are an unfettered, unapologetic capitalist?

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Faith and religion were invented by people who felt the same weaknesses I did

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Factually incorrect.

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I'd rather live honestly than blissfully.

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It's unfortunate that you suffered from depression, but certainly you must know there are plenty of Christians who live honest and blissful lives.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Faith and religion were invented by people who felt the same weaknesses I did

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Factually incorrect.

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Actually, all the evidence is that since recorded history people have pretty much had the same emotions, relationship problems, ambition, greed, love, whatever. I've alway enjoy reading Ancient Greeks complaining about how teenagers of the day are not of the quality of 'our' generation. Very contemporary.
Even what little we can glean from prehistoric people, same-old same-old seems the order of the day.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

I know this isn't the psychology forum, but I think these are very good posts. If nothing else, it shows that many atheists aren't the born heathens that many of the theists on here think we are. Quite the contrary. We were brought up to believe much of the same things they were and it's not always easy breaking free of the (albeit false), security that religion provides. We were able to break away from the religious dogma and have arrived where we are now, not through scoffing (ahem, NotReady), but through sensible logical conjecture

Our stories are similar. Religion always depressed me. When I finally realized the truth it was like becoming alive for the first time.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Because life without afterlife is awfully pointless.

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Please elaborate.

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Otiose, senseless, purposeless. Anything that I do that contains any purpose (including such things as investing, studying, working out) is done in context of the future.

Would you go to work on Monday if you knew you were not going to get a paycheck on Friday? Would you make personal plans for a month from now if you knew you were going to die tomorrow?

I a) try to do the right things, and b) drink a cup of wine and eat a loaf of bread the first Sunday of each month in preparation for my inevitable death, hopefully many decades from now.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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When I finally realized the truth it was like becoming alive for the first time.

[/ QUOTE ] Some version of this operates on both sides of the aisle. It's more the arriving in a mental space that you have confidence in. Born-againers experience a related 'relief' also.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

<font color="blue">but certainly you must know there are plenty of Christians who live honest and blissful lives. </font>

I don't know how. Don't you find it sad that your god is going to torture over 80% of the people on the planet to an eternal hell of suffering? Is EVERYONE you know and love going to be with you in heaven? How can you lead a blissful life while knowing that your blacksheep sibling, a sinful friend, an ex-lover will be burning in hell for all of eternity?

These are some of the things that depressed me about Catholicism. The god they portrayed didn't seem very loving to me. He seems to enjoy burning people at altars, committing mass murders by flood, killing innocent first borns, etc. And yet with this knowledge, and all this future suffering you manage to lead a blissful life?

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Can you prove to me that Jesus was not the Son of God?
Sounds like you're putting the onus on me to disprove something

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If you claim that you know it to be disproven with utter certainty, then yes, I am putting that onus on you.

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instead of insuinating that if your belief cannot be disproved it must mean I am the one using faulty reasoning?

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I insinuated no such thing. Your reasoning is fine, that since it doesn't make sense to you, you don't believe it. However you take great liberties with the words "truth", "know", and "certain" and this is simply what I was pointing out.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Faith and religion were invented by people who felt the same weaknesses I did

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Factually incorrect.

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I think you misinterpreted my philosophical/psychological meaning. I'm exploring the individual's motivations for religious thought. An insightful book on the subject is Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morality.

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I'd rather live honestly than blissfully.

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It's unfortunate that you suffered from depression, but certainly you must know there are plenty of Christians who live honest and blissful lives.

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I do not know any Christians who I would call intellectually honest. That's not to say there aren't any out there. But Christianity lends itself to ignorance since faith is a necessary requirement, not to mention the fear it instills in those who would otherwise question it. Such brilliant safeguards the bible put into place! To be an atheist takes courage and the ability to be brutally honest with oneself. Admittedly, most people aren't capable of this.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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I don't know how. Don't you find it sad that your god is going to torture over 80% of the people on the planet to an eternal hell of suffering? Is EVERYONE you know and love going to be with you in heaven? How can you lead a blissful life while knowing that your blacksheep sibling, a sinful friend, an ex-lover will be burning in hell for all of eternity?


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There's that liberal usage of the word "know" again. I don't know the answers to any of those questions, nor am I a Catholic. I manage to make it through my day without thinking much of Hell.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Would you go to work on Monday if you knew you were not going to get a paycheck on Friday? Would you make personal plans for a month from now if you knew you were going to die tomorrow?

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The problem with believing that everyone has that psychological need is that there are millions of two-legged pieces of evidence that show it is not a necessary condition for everyone. Productive, happy, community-oriented, family-centered, whatever ... find life very rewarding and fullfilling without it.
I'm not plugging which is better ( feeling fulfilled because of distant future rewards, or feeling fulfilled with the rewards over 3score and 10) just that it's obviously not a universal necessity.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

Evolvedform, you talk of intellectual honesty, and then purport your absolute certainty of something that you can in no way be certain of, that is, if you were actually intellectually honest.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

Luckyme, I don't believe that everyone has that psychological need. Clearly atheists do not.

I simply put forth a reason for believing in Christ, since one was requested.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

When do I "purport my absolute certainty?" This statement is absurd. It's called an opinion. If you were confident in your own opnion you wouldn't be so offended by mine.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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I do not know any Christians who I would call intellectually honest. That's not to say there aren't any out there.

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The typical xtrian is raised in that culture and it's not a matter of intellectual honesty since that hasn't been tested by them. No more than why we shake hands or clink our glasses.

The intellectual honesty issue can only arise if one tries to approach it intellectually ( and some do) which never seems to work, maybe it can't work.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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I simply put forth a reason for believing in Christ, since one was requested.

[/ QUOTE ] thanks Riddick. I overread your statement in more general terms. It's encouraging to see some realization that there is a lot of different-strokes-for-different-folks at play in this arena.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

Evolvedform, I am in no way offended by your atheism, but purely from this thread...

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Finally, after realizing that there is no God I can live a fruitful life.


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Faith and religion were invented by people

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As I say, thank God there isn't one (God).

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Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Because life without afterlife is awfully pointless.

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Why are you so sure life has a point? Nothing about it makes much sense. Look at one aspect of it: the self. There is rationality and there is irrationality. All religion focuses only on the former and ignores the latter or calls it "evil." But why would God give us this "evil" aspect? Why the desires for power and sex, greed and lust, and all these other unspeakables which never cease bubbling inside of us? This is man, honestly. If we are made in the image of God, what kind of monster must God be? Our rationality is by no means our foremost means of action. We act in ways that make no sense, and so does the world. That's why trying to make sense of it never amounts to a sensible answer. I'm not asking you to like it, just to accept it.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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I a) try to do the right things, and b) drink a cup of wine and eat a loaf of bread the first Sunday of each month in preparation for my inevitable death, hopefully many decades from now.

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Hiya Riddick,

Regarding your point a) and b):

a) most commendable assuredly, I am just hoping you are not misguided as to what is good (example of monstruous misguidedness: the behaviour you attribute to your god)

b) now, here I must be missing something, I would appreciate your elaboration on how a piece of bread and a cup of wine, the first sunday of each month, prepares you for your inevitable death. By the way, I try to drink a bottle wine everyday and and eat bread 3 or 4 days per week. Will this be helpful to?

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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would appreciate your elaboration on how a piece of bread and a cup of wine, the first sunday of each month, prepares you for your inevitable death.

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Are you familiar with "Do this in remembrance of me"?

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By the way, I try to drink a bottle wine everyday and and eat bread 3 or 4 days per week. Will this be helpful to?

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Are you doing it in remembrance of Him?

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Evolvedform, you talk of intellectual honesty, and then purport your absolute certainty of something that you can in no way be certain of, that is, if you were actually intellectually honest.

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It all depends on the context and in an atheist/theist comparison it can never be anything but apples and oranges. There is a reason it is called 'faith' and major xtrian philosophers talk about 'leap of faith'.

Since an atheist has that ingrediant missing in their deliberations and deducing there are several ways to be as certain of the non-existance as one can be certain of anything. But it's impossible for a 'faith-based' viewpoint to see it as certainty, and if I was a theist I'd be saying "hey, where's the faith part in your weighting" or some such.

Naturally, if I'd made the leap I'd be just as certain .. that's what the leap is supposed to do, that IS what it means... you accept it, period.

I'm not referring to the thinking and weighing that may gets one to the edge of the abyss and consider leaping it, that can be thought out and there's a poster earlier in this thread that sounds like he's on the edge. But the leap is the leap and it's a necessary part of having 'faith'.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

Riddick, the OP asked a question and I answered it. Those are my opinions, and not unfounded at that. If what I said makes you uncomfortable that was not my primary intention. However, I don't think it could hurt.

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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would appreciate your elaboration on how a piece of bread and a cup of wine, the first sunday of each month, prepares you for your inevitable death.

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Are you familiar with "Do this in remembrance of me"?

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By the way, I try to drink a bottle wine everyday and and eat bread 3 or 4 days per week. Will this be helpful to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you doing it in remembrance of Him?

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Ah! Ok thanks, I do know about those words attributed to JC. I got a bit confused with the first sunday of each month and thought it had to be something else. By the way, would it not be preferable to do it as often as possible, if not constantly if it is that therapeutic or valuable vis-a-vis a good death.

And no, I don't do it in memory of him. Moot point any way, since what threw me off was the "1st sunday of each month" bit. I do it because I enjoy it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A Very Sincere Reply
 

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Why are you so sure life has a point? Nothing about it makes much sense. Look at one aspect of it: the self. There is rationality and there is irrationality. All religion focuses only on the former and ignores the latter or calls it "evil." But why would God give us this "evil" aspect? Why the desires for power and sex, greed and lust, and all these other unspeakables which never cease bubbling inside of us? This is man, honestly. If we are made in the image of God, what kind of monster must God be? Our rationality is by no means our foremost means of action. We act in ways that make no sense, and so does the world. That's why trying to make sense of it never amounts to a sensible answer. I'm not asking you to like it, just to accept it.


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Briefly...

Animals murder, steal, "rape", kill their own, and yet they are rational, because to not do so would threaten their survival, which is their only "meaning". Clearly humans descend from the animal order, yet clearly we are no longer animals. Yet the objectivist or the "realist" view denies this and purports, basically, that we are animals. That I do not like nor accept.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

Evolvedform, I did not question your honesty until you questioned the honesty of the Christian faith.