25-50 NL AA hand
 

Hero has 11k. Most opponents have similar.

Preflop: Fold, Hero limps, aggressive player (deerchaser - covers) pots to $225, Hero re-pops to $750, deer calls.

Flop 3d 2h Jd

Hero pots $1575, deer raises to $3700.

Plan?

Edited to add: Ad As.

Edited again to add: 6-max, 6 players.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

How many players?

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

Do you have the Ad?

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

Do you have the Ad?

edit - Paluka, FU. Go back to the limit board!

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

I would stick it in.

EDIT : Oh probably I would go allin... tough with that stack sizes but from what Ive seen in that games this should be good (but I havent seen much)

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

totally dependent on his knowledge of your pf reraising standards. history?

and this is full game right? he's not raising 22, 33 much preflop is he?

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

la,

History? I dunno man, we are all aggro donkeys in that game.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

lapoker,

Of course we're all raising a pair in his spot a lot of the time, especially with everyone having 2x stacks.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

lapoker - 6max.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

Is there an option here besides shoving or folding? Would we ever just call here? I'm honestly asking.
I guess you can just call and hope this makes him go broke with a smaller pocket pair, but if you shove he can get away from it.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

um ok. but i can't figure out if you are thinking of folding, or figuring out how to best get money in. I'm going broke here somehow.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

I would not fold.

I would either call and cr the turn, or more likely, stick in now. My guess is you called.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

lapoker,

I am simply thinking of the most optimal way to play this hand, my friend.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

Calling the flop is definitely an option Paluka. You are not very scared of free cards because if Deer had a naked draw he wouldnt make this raise(I dont think he would atleast...is my thinking off?).

He either has a combo draw he is ready to get it in with or no draw at all. U might convince him to play the turn incorrectly if u just call (I guess this depends a lot on history).

A likely hand for Deer here is QQ-KK (unfortunately JJ also) if u just call there is a much better chance he gets more money in there with those hands.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

i just call. then get it in on nearly any turn. 45dd is the only combo-ish thing out, so we are either crushing his range or he flopped a set. this is wa/wb, and we aren't releasing it to this guy, so let's get the hook set.

your friend,
lapoker17

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

I probably shove. But most times when I am playing deer he would pay me off with a lot of holdings. You have a pretty different image at the table, so this might only be called when he has you smoked or flipping.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

la,

We have 220BB here. How high does that number have to get for you in a very aggressive game before "I have AA, board is pretty innocuous looking, so let's get that in there" is no longer your default plan?

FWIW, in this game, 5k (100bb) is generally an insta-stack w/ all sorts of one-pair hands or draws for many of the more aggressive players.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

There aren't many combo draws out there. KdQd is possible though, and maybe if he is really crazy he could have Ah4h or somesuch.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

Dear Diablo,

I assume deerchaser's aggressive enough that you're not looking to lay your hand down. So it's just getting $$ in when you're ahead, right? Call then check-raise the turn seems like it'd work

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

230

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

FF,

If I can figure out that I'm behind, I have no problem laying down one pair here. The question is, is there a way to do that vs an aggressive player in this kind of spot? If not, at what point (BB-wise) does that become the consideration rather than figuring out how best to stack QQ?

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

lapoker,

I got the stacks wrong. We have 11700 (234BB), not 11000.

What is your line now?

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

If there was no flush draw on this flop, we would feel really good about just calling right?

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

Play it like you would if you knew he had Kings.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

I still think u are too concerned about this flush draw. If anything the flush draw gives us more of a reason to just call because its a non made hand he can put us on

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I still think u are too concerned about this flush draw. If anything the flush draw gives us more of a reason to just call because its a non made hand he can put us on

[/ QUOTE ]

If he was against a more solid player, I wouldn't worry about the flush draw so much. But this Deerchaser fellow seems like the type that would get frisky here with a draw.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there was no flush draw on this flop, we would feel really good about just calling right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we'd feel worse, because it's much less likely that he's playing back at us with a draw and much more likely that we are crushed. FWIW, a naked draw could easily play it this way.
-James

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

Diablo,

I think the minraise is a huge pain. If you're going to fold, it's to that raise. The only other way to fold I can imagine is calling then leading out 3/4 pot on the turn, but then the pot's so huge you probably have to call and hope you're good.

If you call and check, and he bets, can you be sure you're behind? Unless you plan on calling and checking hoping he checks it down, your options are:
1) Push-lets him off easy with worse hands
2) Fold-very disgusting
3) Call and lead the turn-seems all right, but not as good as
4) Call and go for the check-raise on the turn. This might risk giving him free cards, but if he's as aggressive as you say I doubt this c/raise attempt will whiff. I guess my original suggestion stands b/c I'm not folding to this minraise and I see no other part of the hand where you can find a fold.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there was no flush draw on this flop, we would feel really good about just calling right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we'd feel worse, because it's much less likely that he's playing back at us with a draw and much more likely that we are crushed.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

This is obviously true

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

in that case.

this is not a mechanical hand dude. your characterization of him as aggro, combined with what i perhaps mistakenly infer - that you are viewed as solid and aggros thusly take shots at you - makes me far more willing to go broke here. i think folding to the flop raise is very weak and not something i would do given the little info i have available. i think pushing (assuming you are viewed as solidish) is not a good option because so few draws are out and most hands that call beat us.

so, after calling his flop raise, most of the deck provides innocuous, turns. if you just called the flop to see if he would fire again on a blank turn, then maybe you should fold the flop. just not something i would do.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

FF and Yeti,

both of you advocated a possible line as calling and c/r'ing on the turn. If Diablo calls there is less then a pot sized bet left on the turn. Do you still think a check is good there? I don't think you can check going planning to go for a c/r, maybe they can bet a worse hand if you check though?

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

Paluka,

One note. I dont give a sht about the flush draw. If he has that and hits on the turn, good for him, I have the Ad and will resuck.

My most standard line will be to call and then check-call allin or checkraise all-in on any turn if he underbets.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
My most standard line will be to call and then check-call allin or checkraise all-in on any turn if he underbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait, this is what i was advocating initially when you gave me sht about being willing to go broke with one pair here. this is not a hand where there are many "alternate" lines.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
FF and Yeti,

both of you advocated a possible line as calling and c/r'ing on the turn. If Diablo calls there is less then a pot sized bet left on the turn. Do you still think a check is good there? I don't think you can check going planning to go for a c/r, maybe they can bet a worse hand if you check though?

[/ QUOTE ]

people sometimes bet less than pot

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

D,

haven't read the other replies but basically I don't like the preflop limp-rr with these stacks UNLESS it's something you do often enough for him to put you on air/something other than an overpair as a decent part of your range....if that "unless" is indeed the case, then you pretty much have no choice but to be committed to your hand.....how you do that - reraise now, call and lead turn, call and checkraise turn - is up to you.....main thing though is that even though deerchaser is aggressive, he's not a donk right?, well then preflop he's calling 500 with position to win 11k - I don't like laying a decent opponent those kinds of odds if they know my hand.......

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

I know this might not be the point of your original post, but how often do you limp-reraise? Unless you do this with hands other than AA/KK, it seems like a bad idea to basically reveal your have with stacks that deep, even with AA. Limp-reraising seems like a better idea when you can get at least 20% of your stack in preflop.

To answer the OP, i think you either should push on flop, or call and push turn(don't check-raise). From the read you had, I think i'd be willing to put it all-in. Although a free card probably can't hurt you, i wouldn't give him the chance to take one. Even if you push makes him fold a better hand, I can't see him putting in much more money with a hand you beat after you call the flop bet, even if he's aggressive.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

The fact is, if you fold AA pre-flop, they can't outdraw you.

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

* Deleted * messed up math alert.

Lori

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Paluka,

One note. I dont give a sht about the flush draw. If he has that and hits on the turn, good for him, I have the Ad and will resuck.

My most standard line will be to call and then check-call allin or checkraise all-in on any turn if he underbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often when you just call the flop would you expect him to check behind on the turn? If he does check behind on the turn, will you still usually get paid off on a pot-sized bet on the river?

Re: 25-50 NL AA hand
 

la: I wasn't giving you sht, just opening up the discussion, esp. w/ respect to situations where the stacks start getting deeper.

Paluka: If I'm worried about that, something silly-looking like leading half my stack is another option to consider.

Cav: I and most others can and will limp re-raise w/ various holdings here in this spot.