Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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I am saying I cannot believe in things which are illogical. That is all.

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There is nothing illogical about the existance of superior beings. However, if you're unwilling to go down that road, then perhaps you should just postulate that you have free will and be done with it. The alternative is to live with your problem.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

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You speak in a lot of absolutes, you need more crayons. The difference in level of complexity between a frog and my laptop is noteworthy, no?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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You speak in a lot of absolutes, you need more crayons.

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This is a lovely turn of phrase and I'm stealing it.

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The difference in level of complexity between a frog and my laptop is noteworthy, no?

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Which do you believe to be more complex, your laptop or a frog, just out of curiousity?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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[/ QUOTE ] Which do you believe to be more complex, your laptop or a frog, just out of curiousity?

Frogs - 1,000,000 laptops 1 but gaining

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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Frogs - 1,000,000 laptops 1 but gaining

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Agreement and end of curiousity, then. Though there is an interesting model called Rana computatrix out there and I was vaguely thinking you might be thinking of that.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I'm taking PHI 100 right now and some of the stuff is interesting, including the debate over free will and libertarianism and determinism. I don't think the idea of determinism is all that wrong. Would you not agree that all of your actions are caused by previous events? Explain one that didn't?

I'm not saying I'm a die hard determinist, but it is somewhat interesting.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I have yet to see a particularly compelling argument against determinism. That said, it's clearly impossible to base your life on this doctrine. Even your question "what do i do?" makes no sense in a deterministic context. Why seek advice you're powerless to implement? Why complain about a solution being unsatisfactory if you're powerless to change it? Why even ask why about any of these things since you were powerless to do anything but make that post in the first place?

I think the solution is to accept determinism as being true and just file it away in the back of your mind, only to be pulled out in the case of extreme philosophical debate. Then live your life assuming that people have free will. It's not a particularly satisfying option intellectually, but I don't think an option like that exists.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

This is exactly the conclusion I have reached. In fact, your post is basically my exact thought process. This makes it at least a little more likely we have hit upon something here. I'm not happy about that : (

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Unsatisfactory how? Why not just do what you consider to have value? Go for "+EV" in your life. If raping/killing/stealing will have good consequences for you, go for it.

Keep in mind that emotional consequences are very real, too. Even if doing "bad things" would result in some nominal gain, the feelings of guilt or shame may not be worth it. Reputation and risk of getting caught are also worth considering. But I don't think many "immoral" acts are wise or rational in the first place.

Another thing to consider are your standards of value and success. What are your goals? Objectively being happy is no better than being miserable, but I assume you have an ingrained preference for being happy. You may also have an ingrained preference for helping others to be happy rather than causing them to suffer. You may have a natural or conditioned desire to see yourself as a "good person." There are many reasons to act ethically that have nothing to do with a higher power or with notions of "free will."

Your choices may be predetermined, but that doesn't make them insignificant. The choices you make determine the entire course of your life. In a world with free will, you might be able to "change your ways" at some later date and recover, but in a causal universe there is no escaping the effects of what you do. So the idea of determinism hardly diminishes the significance of your immediate actions.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Because I'm not actually making choices. Because I can't NOT do what I'm doing. Because I must do exactly what I'm doing.

That's depressing; however I am unwilling to simply change my viewpoint because I don't want to believe it.