Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

Party 500K. 240 players left, we've made our money back but the big money is still a fair ways off. Blinds have just goneto 500/1000. I have 14K and the villain in both these hands has the exact same.

Hand 1. 3 folds and MP raises to 3K. FOlded to me in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Do you play?

Hand 2. 4 folds to same guy who raises to 4K. FOlded to me in the SB with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Do you Raise, call or fold? What do you think the significance of the extra 1K raise is?

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

Hand 1:

Any reads on these guys? This is an exact situation where read dictates my play. With no read at all, I probably fold and wait for a better spot. But if this guy has been opening with JT+, QT+, KT+, Ax, or any PP, then obviously I'm pushing.

Hand 2:

Hard to say the significance of the 1K raise. All else equal, I have found some guys raise a little more with a more vulnerablee holding (i.e., a hand they'd rather not see a flop with). Again, without a read, we really can't just guess what the extra 1K means. What it DEFINITELY does mean is there is an extra 1K in the pot, giving you even more reason to push with the TT. Either way, TT against an open-raiser, I am pushing almost always.

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

I would have to say the entire table had been pretty tight. I hadn't seen a really poor hand showed down yet.

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

hand 1: given 3 folds in front and high blinds, i think MPs range could be rather wide here. tough spot for you with ATs but i think it's close between folding or raising all-in. i think flat-calling OOP for that much of your stack is a clear mistake unless you are going to stop-and-go (which could work but i'd much rather have a pair in that situation).

hand 2: not sure if anything can be determined by the extra 1k but if anything can, i'd say it's less likely that you're up against a pair that dominates yours (because those usually want to encourage action - although QQ or JJ are possibilities) and more likely that it's a pair that you dominate or an unpaired hand. with the money so far away and blinds increasing, i think TT is too good to fold here HU so i think your choices are between re-raise all-in or stop and go.

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

1. bleh. this looks similar to the hand billyjex posted and Aplus did the math for, he said that a push was profitable with any two cards. I think the villain in that hand had been stealing recently, so maybe his range was a bit wider, but i think a push here should be good.

2. I think this hsa to be a push, i think the extra 1k might be a slightly smaller (better) range for him, but not small enough that you're behind it. And calling 4k of your 13k stack doesn't seem good, and a stop and go w/ TT would only get hands you have killed to fold.

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

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a stop and go w/ TT would only get hands you have killed to fold.

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first, i don't think that's true (e.g. does 88 fold on a 7 high flop? does AKs always fold on rag flop? or with a draw?)

second, the pot is big enough that winning the pot is the primary objective. it's ok if worse hands fold. you'd rather have your opponent only see 3 cards and win the pot than lose the pot after they see all 5 cards.

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

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a stop and go w/ TT would only get hands you have killed to fold.

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first, that's not true (e.g. does 88 fold on a 7 high flop? does AKs always fold on rag flop? or with a draw?)

second, the pot is big enough that winning the pot is the primary objective. it's ok if worse hands fold. you'd rather have your opponent only see 3 cards and win the pot than lose the pot after they see all 5 cards.

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stop and go is terrible here. there are exactly 0 hands that have you beat preflop that will fold on any flop. I mean, what's the point? If you're going to push any flop anyway, might as well get all-in now as a favorite.

easy push with a 14BB stack and pocket 10s.

The Stop n Go
 

In a situation like this where you have a hand like 1010, the point of the SnG is not to get a better hand to fold really. Rather its to maybe, but not likely get a better hand to fold, but at the same time shut out overcards from seeing the turn and river, increasing the frequency with which you win the pot.

That said, the 1010 hand here should still be a push i think.

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

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a stop and go w/ TT would only get hands you have killed to fold.

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first, i don't think that's true (e.g. does 88 fold on a 7 high flop? does AKs always fold on rag flop? or with a draw?)

second, the pot is big enough that winning the pot is the primary objective. it's ok if worse hands fold. you'd rather have your opponent only see 3 cards and win the pot than lose the pot after they see all 5 cards.

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meh. you're ahead of too many hands here. maybe i'll do the math later and see which wins the pot more often.

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

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stop and go is terrible here. there are exactly 0 hands that have you beat preflop that will fold on any flop. I mean, what's the point? If you're going to push any flop anyway, might as well get all-in now as a favorite.


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with that logic, when if ever, would you advocate using a stop-and-go?

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

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meh. you're ahead of too many hands here. maybe i'll do the math later and see which wins the pot more often.

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fwiw, i'm not saying the stop-and-go is the definitive play - i said the choice is between a push and stop-and-go. if one had reads (which we do not in this case) in certain situations regarding whether someone could or couldn't let go of overcards on a missed flop, i think one could make a very good case for the S&G over a push.

if TT is too big of a hand to do a S&G, how small of a pocket pair would make a S&G acceptable?

Re: Mediocre hands from the blinds
 

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stop and go is terrible here. there are exactly 0 hands that have you beat preflop that will fold on any flop. I mean, what's the point? If you're going to push any flop anyway, might as well get all-in now as a favorite.


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with that logic, when if ever, would you advocate using a stop-and-go?

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I use the stop-and-go when I am in the blind, have a short stack that leaves me with between a 1/2 and full pot bet if I call, my hand is too good to fold given the pot odds and Villain's preflop range, Villain is committed to call my all-in and I also expect my hand to be no better than a coinflip. So I may SnG with lower pairs (<66), weak aces, broadway cards.

The difference between these hands and 1010 is that 1010 is only behind 4 other hands, Villain's preflop raising range is significantly wider than these 4 hands, and 1010 is a big favorite against lower pairs that would likely call a preflop push. Though pot odds won't let me get away from the other hands, with 1010 i figure to be ahead of Villain's range and am happy to push that edge.

Would you SnG with JJ or QQ? why or why not?

My argument against an SnG here is that it is more +EV to push preflop. The hand you're really targeting here is a two overcard hand, since we can assume JJ-AA will call your open push.

So let's say Villain is on two overcards. Roughly (1/3) of the time Villain hits, you push and he calls and wins ~92% of time. (2/3) of the time he misses and should fold because he's not getting the right odds to call. You don't know which two he is on, so you're pushing any flop (sng).

So, assume Villain plays optimally. Then on average your resulting stack size will be
(1/3)*(0.92)*0+(1/3)*(0.08)*(t28500) + (2/3)*(t22500) = t15760.

Now, let's say you push preflop. Against two overcards you are a 56% favorite.
0.56*t28500 +0.44*0 = t15960.

You're better off pushing preflop (this is simplified, of course, but at the very least it's very close). you can ignore higher pairs because we assume they'll call either way. this leaves us with lower pairs -- they will often times call preflop, but will occasionally fold to the flop push, and you'd really rather have them along.

What I did
 

I folded the AT without really thinking much about it.I really putthat inthere to see if I'm way tighter than most, and to see if anyone calls here to see if the flop is any help, but of course if the A falls, now what. If I think my A is good I should be pushing here pre-flop shouldn't I?

I pushed with TT and I'm glad to see most would do the same. I wondered if the stop and go would be the play. I prefer to try and survive with hands like this, had he been in later position i would have pushed right away, but I had a bad feeling about him upping his raise, felt like JJ or QQ and it was QQ. THe flop came AKK and I wonder if I might have survived if I had just called.

Players were going out at a real fast rate at this stage, and I'm still 170 away from any serious money though, and I could wait a long time for a hand better than TT.