Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I figured these for standard bets, but I'd like to better understand why. If you agree that these are standard bets, could you explain with math, EV analysis, pro and cons, etc.

In both hands you can assume that you have a mix of tight and loosish players, with nothing wild concerning aggression or passivity. Sort of the normal mix of opponents you'd expect to have at a table.

Hand 1: MP1, MP2, MP3 and the CO limp, the Button and SB fold, and I check in the BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
I bet

-----------------------------------------

Hand 2: EP limp, LP limp, SB completes, I check in BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, I bet

Is this the ideal line?

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

i dont bet with J-hi ever unless i wanna bluff someone out. i dont think you are gonna bluff anyone out, therefore just check.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I bet both of these as well, but I think hand 2 is more standard than hand 1.

Hand 2 I like because this board is so low that there is a large chance it missed everybody and thus your FE goes way up thus making the bet +EV.

For the second hand the Q is a worrisome card as lots of limping hands will contain Qs, thus your FE isn't as high in this hand. OTOH, with a larger field and a bk straight draw your equity in this pot is high enough that a bet here called by multiple players is +EV.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I'm not sure either of these is a "standard" bet OOP. The worst thing that could happen would be for the next player to put money into the pot to be holding TP, a weakly-preflopped overpair or UI overcards that he wants to protect, and so he raises you, forces the rest of the field out, and leaves you HU with a 35% (give or take, you've got BDSDs in both) and the taste of regurgitated lunch in your mouth. So, in the absence of another way to win (e.g. top pair + FD) I'm going to check these flops and see if someone else bets for me.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure either of these is a "standard" bet OOP. The worst thing that could happen would be for the next player to put money into the pot to be holding TP, a weakly-preflopped overpair or UI overcards that he wants to protect, and so he raises you, forces the rest of the field out, and leaves you HU with a 35% (give or take, you've got BDSDs in both) and the taste of regurgitated lunch in your mouth. So, in the absence of another way to win (e.g. top pair + FD) I'm going to check these flops and see if someone else bets for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Perhaps you'll find something useful here

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

1) Value

If three people call, then you've made money on your bet. I don't think I need to go further here.

2) Cleans up pair outs

Your opponent's don't have to have top pair. In hand 1, you want JTo to fold. If you can make a bet that doesn't cost you anything but clears up outs - well, that's a good bet.

3) Chance to win UI

If two people call, then you break even on your bet. But since you took the lead on the flop you'll have a chance to take the pot down later in the hand. If you had checked the flop, your odds of winning UI go down precipitously, as you won't be able to represent top pair.

If only one person calls, then you lost money on the bet...but your chances of winning the pot UI are even higher.

So, really, regardless of the number of callers, the bet is going to make you money somehow.

Will

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

i bet both of these...

hand 1...huge field, somewhat ragged board so you can't be sure a bet will go in or where it will come from, so just bet it yourself...your J might also be an out here...

hand 2...super ragged board, its possible you pick this one up here often i think, and other times you will pick it up with a turn bet...on this board your pair outs are also somewhat likely to be good...

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont bet with J-hi ever unless i wanna bluff someone out. i dont think you are gonna bluff anyone out, therefore just check.

[/ QUOTE ]

A loose passive game with 7 to the flop and you hold J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the BB.

Flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Are you ready to bet J high now?

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

In Hand 1 I would usually bet, but I am a little concerned about ending up heads-up for 2 SB's versus whoever happens to have a queen.

In Hand 2 I think the chances are better that the flop missed everyone. People may peel, or people may fold. I don't really expect to take it down immediately all that often, but I'll be happy if I do, and if I don't I still may have 15 outs.

By the way, if the first hand were taking place last night, I would get raised by the person with a bigger flush draw, and I'd make my flush on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]