($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Do you guys make this play? Or, are the other players not knowledgeable enough to be making these moves?

SB and BB do not seem to be total donks. I have not been pushing many hands, Button just got that short.

PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 8 - 4 players (Converter: PGC)

Chip Counts:
Button: 540 Chips
SB: 1880 Chips
BB: 1420 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 4160 Chips</font>

Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Blinds are 200/400

PreFlop
Hero is All-In…

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Every...single...time.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

all day baby. all day.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

I was about to say why not three times the big blind, then saw the blinds and if someone called you would have to put them all in anyway so it doesnt matter.

I have been using the "bullying the bubble" stratergy and it seems to work - probably wouldnt do it from UTG though - with one limper I might try and carry on stealing the blinds adding 600 to my stack every time im in position.

Obviously here though its all or nothing for the others, not much chance to "play" post flop - that would make me more inclined only to steal from late position - or with this few in, not at all. Defend your BB and pick up the BB when your SB and let the others take care of themselves. Youve done the hard work.

All IMHO off course.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Yes.

Flop trips and/or flush if AA calls you and you are fine anyway.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was about to say why not three times the big blind, then saw the blinds and if someone called you would have to put them all in anyway so it doesnt matter.

I have been using the "bullying the bubble" stratergy and it seems to work - probably wouldnt do it from UTG though - with one limper I might try and carry on stealing the blinds adding 600 to my stack every time im in position.

Obviously here though its all or nothing for the others, not much chance to "play" post flop - that would make me more inclined only to steal from late position - or with this few in, not at all. Defend your BB and pick up the BB when your SB and let the others take care of themselves. Youve done the hard work.

All IMHO off course.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, based on your strategy I would not really be bullying the bubble. If I only defended my bb (which would mean calling all-ins) and stole for the sb (short stack) I wouldn't be getting many opportunities against good players and calling lots of all-ins really isn't my style.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Defend your BB and pick up the BB when your SB and let the others take care of themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a significant leak imo. This is THE time to set yourself up for first. He has a good opportunity here to have 6k chips HU, which is a huge advantage. If lets them fight amongst themselves he'll find himself 4k vs 4k, which is pretty poor.

He has alot of FE here, even at the 22s. In my last set I totally dominated a bubble thanks to shortie. When the bubble burst I had 7k chips, compared to the 3k I had going in. I didn't race once, it was all done by making use of the huge FE I had.

UTG is great to do it from. The other 2 get to see shorty fold, and you are stealing blinds from both the other stacks. You can bleed their equity dry.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

I wasnt suggesting calling lots of all ins.

I didnt realise you were talking about good players. Where I play the players are dreadful and will call with weak Kings e.t.c - so if you have a hand such as K2 they wouldnt lay down K4+ therefore you are far more likely to get a caller.

I suppose it isnt bullying the bubble - its defending my stack against the nutters and stealing the occasional blind in the right spot.

With over 5000 chips it doesnt really matter whether you enter heads up with 5000 vs 3000 or 6000 vs 2000 - obviously the second is MUCH more preferable, but I wouldnt risk going below half the chips to get to that position.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

If you are at all hesitant about this exact situation you need to step back and rethink your bubble strategy.

Button won't call because two potential knockouts in blinds. Blinds won't call because button is so short. This is fundamental. I don't care how stupid they are, they know the next one out gets nothing.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

I'd be pushing just about any 2 here.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be pushing just about any 2 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be pushing any 2 here. The only exception might be if I had done it 10 times in a row and had 72o. Check that, I'd still push.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

fair enough.

From trying this though there have been many times when maniacs have called (as I said above) with nothing Kx or Ax and had a slightly better kicker than me, or I didnt improve my suited connectors e.t.c leaving me with a lot less chips going into three-way or HU.

I play very low though, and with scandinavians [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] so that may make a difference.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Button won't call because two potential knockouts in blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I am button here I am calling with a huge range. I have zero FE anyway so will need to win a showdown. Why not use bigstacks FE and try to triple up.

Still a very easy push for hero though.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Uh, why would you possibly fold this? You can get called, lose, and still have a healthy stack. Getting called with Ax here is not something to tremendously afraid of, certainly not enough to pass up the extreme likelyhood of seeing 3 folds and adding 600 chips.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

even in a $22 you must push this, your hand is too strong and its the bubble.

Comments and Results
 

Thanks for the comments. You guys confirmed that this is an easy push. I’ve just been losing a lot of chip leads lately when AJ/66 most recently call me, and now this one:

PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 8 - 4 players (Converter: PGC)

Chip Counts:
Button: 540 Chips
SB: 1880 Chips
BB: 1420 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 4160 Chips</font>

Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Blinds are 200/400

PreFlop
Hero is All-In, <font color="blue">Button folds</font>, <font color="blue">SB folds</font>, BB is All-In

(2 players) FLOP: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 5780 Chips )


(2 players) TURN: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 5780 Chips )


(2 players) RIVER: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 5780 Chips )


Final Pot:5780 Chips

Results below:
UTG shows:Ks2s,two pairs, tens and eights
BB shows:7sAh,two pairs, tens and eights

Re: Comments and Results
 

BB made an absolutely terrible call.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
even in a $22 you must push this, your hand is too strong and its the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]
what level do you say this becomes -EV? what if heros hand was weaker?

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
even in a $22 you must push this, your hand is too strong and its the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]
what level do you say this becomes -EV? what if heros hand was weaker?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is saying it becomes more +EV at the higher levels because you are less likely to have some dipwad in the BB calling with A7o.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

By the way him calling with A7o didn't even hurt your equity. The beauty about K2s here is their ranges can be absolutely huge and you still profit.

It's not quite "unexploitable" but I can't see the BB calling more than 22+,A2+,K7o+,K2s+,QTo,Q9s+,JTs.. can you?

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I am button here I am calling with a huge range. I have zero FE anyway so will need to win a showdown. Why not use bigstacks FE and try to triple up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually quite wrong. As the button here you would have to be a 49% favourite over the BB's range to call.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Yes. By huge, I don't mean any two. People advocated pushing any two here in heros position here, and if I was up against that sort of hero and I was button the range I can call with to be 49% is pretty huge.

It's not like I can wait for bigger EV+ later. It's quite likely that any play made by me from here on in will be EV-. If I knew the middle stacks were the kind of people who calls bigstack pushes with A7 here, this obviously changes things.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
even in a $22 you must push this, your hand is too strong and its the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]
what level do you say this becomes -EV? what if heros hand was weaker?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is saying it becomes more +EV at the higher levels because you are less likely to have some dipwad in the BB calling with A7o.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah thats what i figured, but was thinking that maybe in higher levels the players could see right through that play and call w/ a semi-wide range. which prob still be a bad play. If you are in SB or BB and are playing to win what range do you call w/?

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Very little. Playing to win does not mean sacrificing a boatload of equity here to the short stack and other blind on the table. That's just retarded.

Also as I've previously commented, please note it doesn't even matter that he called with A7o - if that is typical of his calling range you STILL profit from this push.

Re: Comments and Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
BB made an absolutely terrible call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Once the micro-stack on the button calls, can't one of the blinds call more freely (since when the button and blind both get busted, the blind still takes 3rd)?

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Yes they can. But often won't.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I am button here I am calling with a huge range. I have zero FE anyway so will need to win a showdown. Why not use bigstacks FE and try to triple up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually quite wrong. As the button here you would have to be a 49% favourite over the BB's range to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that 49% mean that it'd be +$EV?

I think it's too late to hope for positive expectation if you fold this.

With the dead chips and UTG's FE I'm calling any two just hoping my cards are live.

Edit:

Don't have SNGPT at work, but now I'd be interested to see what kind of hand you should push UTG for better EV if you and the blinds fold this hand and the big stack calls your push with any two?

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

Shove any 2. This spot is an absoulte winfall for you. Okay maybe shove somewhat less due to the overcall effect. Overcalling on the bubble is risky business though as you need a very strong hand to make it +EV. If it goes push-call, he will still be in a tough spot with something like 66. Maybe shove top 90% or something.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

I'd push any two here.

There are situations where I'll fold bad hands, even though they might be marginally +EV, when 1) I've been pushing a lot lately. Showing them I fold *some* hands gives me more credibility. 2) Their calling ranges are getting too wide and 3) If they call my all-in and I show 82o, I've lost almost all FE. (Yes, bad players will call you with bad hands if they see you push with even worse hands...)

So I guess I give up some marginally +EV spots to keep some FE intact.

Re: Comments and Results
 

In a 22 I don't see BB ever folding A9s or A10+. Thats the problem with low buyin's, every donk sees every all in as a bluff.. I guess I would evaluate my table image and make my decision based on that.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

That was a terrible call by the BB. It would be a bad call even if your cards were face up.

I would, however, call with any Ace or any pair if I was shortie on the Button.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]

It's not quite "unexploitable" but I can't see the BB calling more than 22+,A2+,K7o+,K2s+,QTo,Q9s+,JTs.. can you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can. Not the first time you push, but at least at the 33s, I wish I had a dollar for every time I got called by something like J5o just because someone got tired of my pushes the fourth or fifth time around. (This may just be a product of the freakishly long bubbles I've been finding myself playing lately, that they even have long enough to get frustrated at it, but these things happen.)

Not that I mind in that case, but I definitely can see a calling range wider than that, yes.

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's not quite "unexploitable" but I can't see the BB calling more than 22+,A2+,K7o+,K2s+,QTo,Q9s+,JTs.. can you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can. Not the first time you push, but at least at the 33s, I wish I had a dollar for every time I got called by something like J5o just because someone got tired of my pushes the fourth or fifth time around. (This may just be a product of the freakishly long bubbles I've been finding myself playing lately, that they even have long enough to get frustrated at it, but these things happen.)

Not that I mind in that case, but I definitely can see a calling range wider than that, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been getting spite-called by low and middle suited connectors.... I was abusing the bubble yesterday wih around 1/2 the chips on the table, and one guy called my push who was in a comfortable third (&gt;10BBs) with a tiny 4th place chip stack about to be allin on the blinds. He had 67 suited and I had 4s. After he spiked a seven to double up, he said, "Don't you know Doyle Brunson says low pocket pair go broke against suited connectors?"

Re: ($22): Attempting to own the bubble, worth it at 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's not quite "unexploitable" but I can't see the BB calling more than 22+,A2+,K7o+,K2s+,QTo,Q9s+,JTs.. can you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can. Not the first time you push, but at least at the 33s, I wish I had a dollar for every time I got called by something like J5o just because someone got tired of my pushes the fourth or fifth time around. (This may just be a product of the freakishly long bubbles I've been finding myself playing lately, that they even have long enough to get frustrated at it, but these things happen.)

Not that I mind in that case, but I definitely can see a calling range wider than that, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been getting spite-called by low and middle suited connectors.... I was abusing the bubble yesterday wih around 1/2 the chips on the table, and one guy called my push who was in a comfortable third (&gt;10BBs) with a tiny 4th place chip stack about to be allin on the blinds. He had 67 suited and I had 4s. After he spiked a seven to double up, he said, "Don't you know Doyle Brunson says low pocket pair go broke against suited connectors?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you'll run into this stuff occasionally. Guys like that help make us winning players.