Two Plus Two Older Archives - How not to Play AK?

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mojobluesman

12-19-2005 12:42 PM

How not to Play AK?

I sat down to 2 tables of PP .50-1.00 and got AK 5 times in the first round of play. I either misplayed or was unsure of what to do in all 5 hands. I'm posting 4 of them hoping someone is brave enough to review them all and give me some feedback. It might verify my "after the fact' thinking on the hands. Second, it demonstrates how poorly or lost a solid winner at this level can be/play at times. I won't tell which I won or lost.

Hand #1

At a minimum, the river call is preposterous!

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG+2 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Hand #2

After check raising me and then capping my flop re-raise I felt it was likely I was up against either AA or KK, but not certain. So I checked behind on the turn assuming he was trying the same ploy. He checked again on the river and I checked behind again. The river is a question mark.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (14.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Hand #3

Given all the pre-flop action and a J on the board, I was unsure of whether to call the flop raise because even if someone didn't have 3 Js, someone else probably had the same hand as me. The pot was so huge I called and the turn card made me call down all the way.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 3-bets, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero caps, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (22 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (17 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (20 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 23 BB

Hand #4

The "donk" bet on the turn spooked me - trips/two pair?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Easystreet

12-19-2005 12:56 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Here is what I would do

Hand 1
I would raise the turn.

Hand 2
I would bet the turn.

Hand 3
Raise the turn.

Hand 4
Raise the turn.

joeski19

12-19-2005 12:58 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Hand 1 - Fold river
Hand 2 - I bet the turn.
Hand 3&4 - Raise turn.

davelin

12-19-2005 01:00 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - Fold river
Hand 2 - I bet the turn.
Hand 3&4 - Raise turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

davelin

12-19-2005 01:01 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I would do

Hand 1
I would raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blah, this idea sucks IMO.

marchron

12-19-2005 01:13 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Hand 1: nh 'til the river. I think you realize there's no way a preflop capper and lead-bettor on every street could possibly have a worse hand than yours unless he's an absolute bombthrowing maniac. The pot's huge on the flop, and you have the nut flush draw on the turn. But yeah, river call = super-spew.

Hand 2: This play baffles me. Either you saved a lot of chips by not letting him checkraise you, or he spooked you into missing two value bets. With no reads, the check/raise/cap line on the flop tells you he can beat TPTK, so I don't mind going into call-down from there or even folding UI. But since there was no bet to call, I think you did okay. I mean, what were you supposed to do, fold?

Hand 3: Raise the turn. If UTG+1 has A/A, J/J or a 4 you're boned, but if he has Q/Q or K/K you're pwning him.

Hand 4: Reads would help. But since you were last to act on the flop, you could have bet with any two cards there. If he really had that good a hand, he'd've checkraised you. (He obviously didn't have that good a hand, since he checked the river when he couldn't spook anybody with his turn donkbet.)

kiemo

12-19-2005 01:29 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Hand 1. Raising the turn isnt such a good idea on this hand with only one opponent and a hand that is probably never going to win if you get a free showdown. You already know to fold the river.

Hand 2. Bet the turn when checked too. If checkraised again you can probably dump

Hand 3. I fold the flop. I know the pots huge, but your overcards are very tainted and I dont like cold calling on back door draws, especially on a paired board where I could be drawing dead already.

Hand 4. Umm raise the turn. Cap it if possible! You have TPTK and nut flush draw with 2 people trapped between you and the raiser. This is pure bliss for you.

12-19-2005 01:29 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Hand 1 = (im going to be crucified for this,) but i play it the same

Hand 2 = bet the turn, see what happens =P

Hand 3 = its fine. to those suggesting raising the turn, your going to see JJ and AJ a lot of the time here
Hand 4 = easy turn raise; think hidden outs, and pot equity with your fd

BatsShadow

12-19-2005 02:07 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

grunch:

First of all, any reads help in all these hands, but it's your first round, not much you can do.

Hand 1: I like it till the river. The only thing you beat is an overplayed AQ. Fold.

Hand 2: This hand is bizarre. I would probably bet the river.

Hand 3: On the flop you have tainted overs and a backdoor flush draw on a scary board vs. 4 other players. You are behind and it is two bets to you. I would fold this everytime.

Hand 4: Sometimes people do this slowplaying the flopped Ace or flopped two pair. Sometimes they do it because they hit their 2 pair on the turn. Sometimes they do it because they now have a good draw with their made hand. You have a draw to the nuts. Call the turn. When the other guy bets the river, I cannot imagine we are ahead. You should probably call getting over 13:1, but I think we have lost - either A9 or T9.

WalkAmongUs

12-19-2005 02:18 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Hand 1: raise the flop. If reraised, call and fold to a turn bet UI. If just called. he'll check to you and you lead the turn hoping to fold him. If he calls just check behind on the river for a free showdown.

Hand 2: Gotta bet that turn. If you're raised again then you're probably behind.

Hand 3: I play the same.

Hand 4: Raise the turn. You have tons of outs. I believe SSH says don't let a random turn bet freez you up. Most random turn bets are bluffs...if the player had a hand he would have just check-raised you.

Easystreet

12-19-2005 02:39 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I would do

Hand 1
I would raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blah, this idea sucks IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, do you think it's impossible villain has AK or AQ suited, and remember on the turn we do not know that villain is also going to bet the river.

12-19-2005 03:23 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Hand 1---I agree with you fold the river
Hand 2--- Gotta bet the turn, and if not bet the river
Hand 3---Fold on the flop
Hand 4---looks good

A_K	12-19-2005 04:07 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Grunch.

Hand 1: maybe fold the flop.

Hand 2: With BB donking along for the ride, I probably bet the turn and certainly bet the river and call one back.

Hand 3: That is a giant pot. Call down and expect to lose.

Hand 4: Raise the turn.

Edited b/c I missed the FD on hand 1. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

mojobluesman

12-19-2005 05:13 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

I think:

Hand #1 - fold river

Hand #2 - checking the turn is not too bad for reasons I expressed, but bet river.

Hand #3 - folding flop may be correct because my outs were so suspect. JJ and I'm dead and another AK is a split.

Hand #4 - Raise the turn

Catsailor

12-19-2005 05:19 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
If UTG+1 has A/A, J/J or a 4 you're boned, but if he has Q/Q or K/K you're pwning him.[ QUOTE ]

This may be dumb but what does pwn mean? I've seen it alot.
Thanks
Cat

davelin

12-19-2005 08:16 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I would do

Hand 1
I would raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blah, this idea sucks IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, do you think it's impossible villain has AK or AQ suited, and remember on the turn we do not know that villain is also going to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain caps OOP and leads the undercard flop. One of your scenarios we're winning, the other we split and the other about 85% of the time we're dominated. If you're going to play back, I'd rather do it on the flop. Waiting til the turn sucks.

WalkAmongUs

12-19-2005 09:14 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I would do

Hand 1
I would raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blah, this idea sucks IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, do you think it's impossible villain has AK or AQ suited, and remember on the turn we do not know that villain is also going to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain caps OOP and leads the undercard flop. One of your scenarios we're winning, the other we split and the other about 85% of the time we're dominated. If you're going to play back, I'd rather do it on the flop. Waiting til the turn sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen.

12-19-2005 10:42 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If UTG+1 has A/A, J/J or a 4 you're boned, but if he has Q/Q or K/K you're pwning him.[ QUOTE ]

This may be dumb but what does pwn mean? I've seen it alot.
Thanks
Cat

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn

Augster

12-20-2005 02:03 AM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Grunch.

So many hands....

Hand 1

Raise the turn. He may think you've already caught the flush and only call. If he 3-bets, call and fold with that river.

Hand 2

Bet the turn.

Hand 3

Either 3-bet the flop, or fold. Cold-calling two with the initial raiser behind you is too weak.

I call down when the Ace hits also.

Hand 4

You have to raise that turn. You have TPTK and a nut flush draw. If the donkbetter re-raises, and the other two trapped call 2, then I'd probably call down.

davelin

12-20-2005 03:29 AM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch.

So many hands....

Hand 1

Raise the turn. He may think you've already caught the flush and only call. If he 3-bets, call and fold with that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez, this is the second suggestion to raise the turn. Since when do we raise on the turn when we don't have an equity edge?

Easystreet

12-20-2005 11:10 AM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grunch.

So many hands....

Hand 1

Raise the turn. He may think you've already caught the flush and only call. If he 3-bets, call and fold with that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez, this is the second suggestion to raise the turn. Since when do we raise on the turn when we don't have an equity edge?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have now changed my mind I think you are right, we should call the turn and not raise. I also think though that if hero has decided to see showdown on the turn then raising is better than calling.

I now think that calling turn and folding river is the correct play.

WalkAmongUs

12-20-2005 11:25 AM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grunch.

So many hands....

Hand 1

Raise the turn. He may think you've already caught the flush and only call. If he 3-bets, call and fold with that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez, this is the second suggestion to raise the turn. Since when do we raise on the turn when we don't have an equity edge?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have now changed my mind I think you are right, we should call the turn and not raise. I also think though that if hero has decided to see showdown on the turn then raising is better than calling.

I now think that calling turn and folding river is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the flop and betting the turn is the easiest way to find out where you are for as little chips as possible. You risk 2 BB at most to see the hand to showdown. Unless something odd happens, you should be getting roughly 4:1 odds for seeing the hand to showdown and you should win this hand well over >20% of the time either at showdown or with your opponent folding.

Edited to say: you would obviously fold if your opponent reraises you on the flop and bets the turn. But those times he doesn't you should win over 20% of the time.

the only time this would'nt work is against an uber-tricky maniac or when you and your opponent have super-5,000 hand reads on each other and he knows you'd do this with overcards. Both of these cases are pretty rare, so you might as well raise the flop.

davelin

12-20-2005 11:40 AM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]

raising the flop and betting the turn is the easiest way to find out where you are for as little chips as possible. You risk 2 BB at most to see the hand to showdown. Unless something odd happens, you should be getting roughly 4:1 odds for seeing the hand to showdown and you should win this hand well over >20% of the time either at showdown or with your opponent folding.

Edited to say: you would obviously fold if your opponent reraises you on the flop and bets the turn. But those times he doesn't you should win over 20% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?! You have a OOP capper and a leader on the flop. The times you get to see the showdown for 2BB is about never. For another 1SB you can GUARANTEE yourself a showdown and not worry about spewing 2BB just to see yourself fold on the turn.

WalkAmongUs

12-20-2005 11:55 AM

Re: How not to Play AK?

you never spew 2 BB without seeing the showdown and you'll never guarantee yourself a showdown for 1 SB unless the villain is the king of all passives.

if you raise the flop and he reraises, more likely than not, depending on your read, you can fold right there knowing your beat.

Its read dependent:
against tricky TAG line = raise the flop, if reraised, call and fold turn UI.
against solid TAG line = fold flop
against super-tricky-steal-with-anything TAG = might have to call down.
against Passive line = fold flop
against maniac = possibly call down.

in the 2/4 games i'm playing in i'd use the tricky TAG line most of the time and i'll either win it on the turn or i'll get a free showdown for 2 BB and win UI over 20% of the time.

in any other case, i don't make it to showdown, so i never "spew" 2 BB without seeing a showdown.

12-20-2005 12:05 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Grunch: Very briefly...

#1 Fold River (you already know that)
#2 Fine
#3 Turn bet won't protect your hand as the pot is so big. Your stuck calling to the end like you did.
#4 You HAVE to bet the turn here. You have top pair, top kick and the nut flush draw vs four opponents in a relatively small pot. You CANNOT give anyone a card cheaper than full price. Who knows, someone with a gut shot might even fold.

davelin

12-20-2005 12:06 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
you never spew 2 BB without seeing the showdown and you'll never guarantee yourself a showdown for 1 SB unless the villain is the king of all passives.

if you raise the flop and he reraises, more likely than not, depending on your read, you can fold right there knowing your beat.

Its read dependent:
against tricky TAG line = raise the flop, if reraised, call and fold turn UI.
against solid TAG line = fold flop
against super-tricky-steal-with-anything TAG = might have to call down.
against Passive line = fold flop
against maniac = possibly call down.

in the 2/4 games i'm playing in i'd use the tricky TAG line most of the time and i'll either win it on the turn or i'll get a free showdown for 2 BB and win UI over 20% of the time.

in any other case, i don't make it to showdown, so i never "spew" 2 BB without seeing a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still hate your line. It has merit against a known maniac and that's about it IMO. What are we trying to accomplish against the opponents holdings?

Something that beats us - We're drawing, playing aggresively sucks, raising the flop and folding for one more bet sucks. The only merit is a possible free card on the turn but you want to bet the turn as well.

Something we split with (AKo) - I guess your line has merit to possibly try to push someone off this hand.

Something we dominate (AQo) - You don't want to push this guy off, you want this guy to bet into you with his dominated hodling.

WalkAmongUs

12-20-2005 12:40 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

I see some of your points and other lines may be better for this particular situation...

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to play back, I'd rather do it on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still agree with this. If you're not going to play back then call flop and fold to a turn bet.

On a different flop however, my lines will be very useful in correct situations.

If the flop is something like Qxx, you should be raising the flop and betting the turn sometimes due to your combined chances of folding something you split with, folding a hand that would catch one of its outs against you on the river, folding a middle or low pair (or PP) that is actually ahead, or catching one of your outs and winning.

These combined make this line much better than check-calling when you're against certain opponents on certain flops.

Yet another post of mine that doesn't really relate to the OP's specific hand...

Pedigree

12-20-2005 01:42 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #2

After check raising me and then capping my flop re-raise I felt it was likely I was up against either AA or KK, but not certain. So I checked behind on the turn assuming he was trying the same ploy. He checked again on the river and I checked behind again. The river is a question mark.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (14.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to talk about this hand and specifically why so many are advising a river bet. Why? Thanks...

davelin

12-20-2005 01:51 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand #2

After check raising me and then capping my flop re-raise I felt it was likely I was up against either AA or KK, but not certain. So I checked behind on the turn assuming he was trying the same ploy. He checked again on the river and I checked behind again. The river is a question mark.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (14.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to talk about this hand and specifically why so many are advising a river bet. Why? Thanks...

[/ QUOTE ]

We got TPTK and everyone has shown weakness on turn and river.

WalkAmongUs

12-20-2005 01:56 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand #2

After check raising me and then capping my flop re-raise I felt it was likely I was up against either AA or KK, but not certain. So I checked behind on the turn assuming he was trying the same ploy. He checked again on the river and I checked behind again. The river is a question mark.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (14.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to talk about this hand and specifically why so many are advising a river bet. Why? Thanks...

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+1 would have to be retarded to have a better hand than you and risk getting it checked through on both the turn AND the river (both missing big bets and letting flush draw have a free card).

Bet the river because when he checks it through on both the big streets, the odds you have a better hand than him go WAY up.

Pedigree

12-20-2005 02:16 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

So you're putting him on JJ or TT I presume? Would he play the flop like that with those hands? I'm not sure he would. What if he has AA?

Pedigree

12-20-2005 03:45 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #2

After check raising me and then capping my flop re-raise I felt it was likely I was up against either AA or KK, but not certain. So I checked behind on the turn assuming he was trying the same ploy. He checked again on the river and I checked behind again. The river is a question mark.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (14.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

OK - let me tell you why I think betting the river is wrong. Hopefully somebody will argue with me. We all know that in order to bet the river in last position you have to have the best hand the majority of time (or more than that because you fear the check raise).

There's no possible hand UTG+1 could have played correctly here. In my opinion, the most likely hand is AK. JJ and TT are possible, but no more so than AA. There's no way he's calling with JJ or TT if you bet. The flop action obviously scared him ... the third club and second overcard will terrify him. It's possible he had AA and got scared by the flop action. But if he has AA he's calling your river bet every time.

A river bet is -EV. If I'm wrong, I hope somebody corrects me.

jrz1972

12-20-2005 03:55 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way he's calling with JJ or TT if you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The average Party .5/1 unknown will call the river unflinchingly with either of those hands.

I think this is where you're going wrong. You're assuming your opponents have the same calling standards you do and are playing rationally and thoughfully, as you are. You are wrong about this. Villain has already showed that he isn't playing rationally; like you said yourself, no matter what hand he flips over, we already know he misplayed it. Why do you automatically assume that a guy who butchered his hand on either the flop or turn will suddenly wake up and play sanely on the river?

(FWIW, I agree that AK is the most likely hand for villain in the sense that AK has been played the least badly out of villain's possible range. We want to bet the river to grab an extra half-bet from the straggler).

davelin

12-20-2005 03:56 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Pedigree

12-20-2005 04:14 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's no way he's calling with JJ or TT if you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The average Party .5/1 unknown will call the river unflinchingly with either of those hands.

I think this is where you're going wrong. You're assuming your opponents have the same calling standards you do and are playing rationally and thoughfully, as you are. You are wrong about this. Villain has already showed that he isn't playing rationally; like you said yourself, no matter what hand he flips over, we already know he misplayed it. Why do you automatically assume that a guy who butchered his hand on either the flop or turn will suddenly wake up and play sanely on the river?

(FWIW, I agree that AK is the most likely hand for villain in the sense that AK has been played the least badly out of villain's possible range. We want to bet the river to grab an extra half-bet from the straggler).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sh.it forgot about the straggler. Yes now I'd bet here.

I'm still not convinced heads up. If he has JJ or TT you have to admit that there is some chance he's folding. Especially considering the queen of clubs falling on the river. He got scared by a 7 on the turn, how's he going to react to a Q. I really think that even the most terrible of players is folding JJ or TT most (but probably not all) of the time. But he will almost never fold AA. That's why I'm not ready to say that the majority of the time you bet and get called here you have the best hand.

Again, with the other guy in the hand (which I missed in my last post) I bet this.

davelin

12-20-2005 04:25 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

[ QUOTE ]
I really think that even the most terrible of players is folding JJ or TT most (but probably not all) of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. The most terrible of players is calling this all of the time. The typical PPer is calling this a very decent portion of the time. Heck you could argue the TAG play is to call the river with JJ here. The pot is laying like 15-1 odds.

mojobluesman

12-20-2005 05:08 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Believe it or not the man I feared flipped over the Q2 of diamonds. God only knows what the hell he was thinking on the flop.

Pedigree

12-20-2005 05:30 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

Oh man. Man oh man. How...

jrz1972

12-20-2005 05:32 PM

Re: How not to Play AK?

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