A9o utg
 

10/20 6max 5 handed

I raise A9o utg, small blind (60/7/1.0) calls. I don't have any notes on this player.

Flop JJ5r
Check, I bet, call.

Turn JJ5Ar
Check, I check behind

River JJ5A8
Bet, I call.

Re: A9o utg
 

I'd definitely bet the turn against this LP unknown. He'll call you with enough crap you have beat to more than compensate for the times you have to pay off trips.

Re: A9o utg
 

I bet this turn everytime because my opponents (especially the (60/7/1.0) varitey) peel with all sorts of garbage on this flop.

Re: A9o utg
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet this turn everytime because my opponents (especially the (60/7/1.0) varitey) peel with all sorts of garbage on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. If they did peel the flop with garbage why not give them a chance to pair the river and/or take a stab when they are drawing dead?

Thanks,
efficacy

Re: A9o utg
 

is raising the river and folding to a 3 bet no good here?

Re: A9o utg
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet this turn everytime because my opponents (especially the (60/7/1.0) varitey) peel with all sorts of garbage on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. If they did peel the flop with garbage why not give them a chance to pair the river and/or take a stab when they are drawing dead?

Thanks,
efficacy

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is you can't do this with regularity because your opponents won't

a. bluff the river when you check behind because they know you'll be calling with so many hands.

b. fold when you bet this turn with hands like QJ where you'd really like a fold.

Poker is much easier when you bet your good hands and figure [censored] out from there.

Re: A9o utg
 

[ QUOTE ]
is raising the river and folding to a 3 bet no good here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered that line as well. I think this is better than just calling.

Re: A9o utg
 

[ QUOTE ]
Problem is you can't do this with regularity because your opponents won't

a. ...
b. fold when you bet this turn with hands like QJ where you'd really like a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a typo? I don't think anyone would ever fold QJ if I bet the turn... most likely they'd be C/R'ing me.

Re: A9o utg
 

i like it especially if he will bluff a missed draw.

Re: A9o utg
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like it especially if he will bluff a missed draw.

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That's the thing though... there was really no draw out there so I fealt my hand was either WA or WB. There was no way a free card would hurt me, other than possibly tripping up a small pocket pair.

Re: A9o utg
 

The difference between this and the archetypal WAWB situation is he will call you with quite a bit when you are WA. He'll definitely call you with any pair, he'll definitely call with a straight draw, and he's likely to call you with K high. Plus he might call with any 2 other cards for whatever reason these guys have.

Indeed, against almost any other kind of player the turn check is standard, but this guy is very loose (you have decent value on a turn call), and passive (he's less likely to bluff the river.) As Victor said, if he will bluff a missed draw then checking the turn is better, but given the information we have I don't think he will all that much.

[ QUOTE ]
There was no way a free card would hurt me

[/ QUOTE ]

True, this is not about hand protection; it is about value.

Re: A9o utg
 

[ QUOTE ]
The difference between this and the archetypal WAWB situation is he will call you with quite a bit when you are WA. He'll definitely call you with any pair, he'll definitely call with a straight draw, and he's likely to call you with K high. Plus he might call with any 2 other cards for whatever reason these guys have.

Indeed, against almost any other kind of player the turn check is standard, but this guy is very loose (you have decent value on a turn call), and passive (he's less likely to bluff the river.) As Victor said, if he will bluff a missed draw then checking the turn is better, but given the information we have I don't think he will all that much.

[ QUOTE ]
There was no way a free card would hurt me

[/ QUOTE ]

True, this is not about hand protection; it is about value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. I like your explanation. Your thoughts are appreciated.

~efficacy

Re: A9o utg
 

I agree with Zele and think you miss value against a player this loose by checking

Re: A9o utg
 

I play the turn the same. I also like a river raise.

Re: A9o utg
 

I will bet this every time on the turn. Make the fish pay and don't give free cards - its basic poker. If he raises the turn, you reevaluate. Most passive fish will not bluff this river anyways so you are missing bets.

Re: A9o utg
 

there are quite a few gutterballs out there but, yea, i was wrong when i said "missed draw." i meant that he may bluff any 2 cards.

i like your line of thought on the fact that no pairs will hurt you here.

Re: A9o utg
 

I bet here and give the guy with 60 VPIP the opportunity to ply his primary trade, which is coming up with reasons to call. It should also be noted that a player with 60 VPIP and 1.0 AF is not passive postflop.

Cartman

Re: A9o utg
 

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I bet here and give the guy with 60 VPIP the opportunity to ply his primary trade, which is coming up with reasons to call. It should also be noted that a player with 60 VPIP and 1.0 AF is not passive postflop.

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Yep, he will call with a lot and yep, he could very well checkraise with a lot more then J on turn.

He will call with a worse hand much, much more often then he will pick up something little on river that now is worth calling with. And the chance he got J is not a lot bigger now then it was preflop when he coldcalled, his flopcall means nothing.

Got nothing to do with this thread, but u write good posts cartman.

Re: A9o utg
 

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Got nothing to do with this thread, but u write good posts cartman.

[/ QUOTE ]

I very much appreciate the compliment coming from you.

Re: A9o utg
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is you can't do this with regularity because your opponents won't

a. ...
b. fold when you bet this turn with hands like QJ where you'd really like a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a typo? I don't think anyone would ever fold QJ if I bet the turn... most likely they'd be C/R'ing me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, I meant to give an example of a hand you'd raise preflop, have nothing on the turn, but bet again hoping for a fold. I'm not saying he has QJ- I'm saying you hope he folds hands that definitely have outs and may even be ahead of whatever garbage you hold.

Re: A9o utg
 

[ QUOTE ]
It should also be noted that a player with 60 VPIP and 1.0 AF is not passive postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I thought when I read OP, and the first few responses. IMO the fact that the villain is fairly agressive, makes the OP's line have much merit.

Now if villain was 60/.5 or something like that, I agree with the turn bet/fold much more.