Whats the ruling ?
 

We played a home tournament yesterday and the following situation came up :

UTG raised allin preflop, and the BB asked how many chips he had. The allin guy counted said that he had around 2000 chips, and the BB decided to call.

Then they flipped their cards over and it was KK for UTG and 77 for the BB.
Then another played realised that UTG had miscounted his chips and that he actually had 3800 chips.
The BB then said that he is not calling... Because he would have never called it in the first place if it would have been counted right at the start.

He still has to call right ?

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

I would say he has to call the amount that the KK player said he had, it's his responsibility to protect his bet.

Cody

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

I believe this would be the applicable rule from Robert's Rules of Poker:

[ QUOTE ]
7. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered needs some protection. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

Example: On the end, a player puts a $500 chip into the pot and says softly, “Four hundred.” The opponent puts a $100 chip into the pot and says, “Call.” The bettor immediately shows the hand. The dealer says, “He bet four hundred.” The caller says, “Oh, I thought he bet a hundred.” In this case, the recommended ruling normally is that the bettor had an obligation to not show the hand when the amount put into the pot was obviously short, and the “call” can be retracted. Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

He has to call the full bet of 3800, Because he called the all in bet. Oral bet or in this case call is binding. The only way I would let him off is if the chips of the higher value of UTG were hidden in the behind other chips where the BB couldn't see them.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

Not in my game. UTG gets reprimanded for shooting an angle and takes the blinds. An alternate decision could be that they play the hand open for 2000 chips.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

That is totally an angle-shot (whether intentional or not). He shouldn't have to call.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He has to call the full bet of 3800, Because he called the all in bet. Oral bet or in this case call is binding. The only way I would let him off is if the chips of the higher value of UTG were hidden in the behind other chips where the BB couldn't see them.

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That's BS. Rulings should be enforced in the best interest of the game, not as a "letter of the law" thing.

If I were the host, I would rule that the hand is played "all-in" for the T2000

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

what I meant was were the chips of higher value hidden so the caller couldn't see them. Remember, the highest value of chips must be clearly displayed. If they were hidden I would give the caller a break. Outside of that, a call is a call and he should have to call the 3800.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
what I meant was were the chips of higher value hidden so the caller couldn't see them. Remember, the highest value of chips must be clearly displayed. If they were hidden I would give the caller a break. Outside of that, a call is a call and he should have to call the 3800.

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Agree with Tony, you are being overly stern here. It certainly screams of an angle shot to me. Someone with KK who goes allin is probably hoping for a call if someone has to ask how much the bettor has. Therefore, I am thinking he said 2000 hoping to induce a call. Could be an accident, but either way....

I play the hand allin for 2000...and I tell the UTG guy to shape up his play.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

All-in for T2000. That was too big a difference to write off to an accidental mistake.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

I guess what I miss in this is how can the guy count his chips infront of everyone and make a $1800 mistake. If you ask someone for a chip count, and watch him count, you usually have a idea the total. If he counted them in full view then the caller should of had a good idea what he had.
How many chips were being used and how piles were they in.

Outside of what I wrote, I would need more info to give a answer. I began to see the point that it was a crappy angle shot but would need more info.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

No way. He asked for a count and the count was wrong. This is why in a casino you let the dealer count during an all-in situation. I think he should be able to fold his hand. However the chips should've been pulled into the pot before they turned over their hands. Thus he would've seen the discrepency and wouldn't be accused of angle shooting, but rather given an opportunity to call or fold once more, for the proper amount. In my game we simply have the person next to the player who goes all in do a recount to make sure there is an accurate count.

Good luck,
Matt

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No way. He asked for a count and the count was wrong. This is why in a casino you let the dealer count during an all-in situation. I think he should be able to fold his hand. However the chips should've been pulled into the pot before they turned over their hands. Thus he would've seen the discrepency and wouldn't be accused of angle shooting, but rather given an opportunity to call or fold once more, for the proper amount. In my game we simply have the person next to the player who goes all in do a recount to make sure there is an accurate count.

Good luck,
Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree. He should be able to fold his hand and pull hischips back. Gross mis-information!

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

I wonder why everyone thinks that UTG is the one pulling the angle-shot. I would guess that, if BB had AA instead of 77, or if UTG didn't have KK, BB wouldn't be the one complaining about the size of the bet.

The common sense thing to do (though not exactly in line with Robert's Rules) is make BB's bet $2000. Reason? He asked for a count and was told $2000. IMO, BB called a $2000 bet. To rule otherwise is to reward BB, who seems to be more upset that he's an 80/20 dog.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

gusmahler
You raise a good point. If the BB asked for a chip count and was told 2000 and he called, then he only called the 2000. Be intersting what the other guys post on this.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder why everyone thinks that UTG is the one pulling the angle-shot. I would guess that, if BB had AA instead of 77, or if UTG didn't have KK, BB wouldn't be the one complaining about the size of the bet.

The common sense thing to do (though not exactly in line with Robert's Rules) is make BB's bet $2000. Reason? He asked for a count and was told $2000. IMO, BB called a $2000 bet. To rule otherwise is to reward BB, who seems to be more upset that he's an 80/20 dog.

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How does this not seem liek an angle shot from UTG to you? He "miscounted" for nearly double his chips. I still think he is WANTING a call there, obviously. So he probably was counting lower to induce the call. And you ARE right...if BB had AA, then the UTG would complain, but guess what...that is because his angleshot failed.

This is a 2,000 hand played as it is allin. And while we don't really know stacks, I have trouble believing the BB with 77 says he wouldnt have called the 3800 but would call the 2000. He had a read, and missed....So yes, he is playing slimy too imo. Is it possible they both angle shot? (Maybe 77 guy noticed KK guy had more, but would wait to say anything until after he won the hand)

People have no class anymore.

Re: Whats the ruling ?
 

You're probably right, they're both shooting an angle.

That's why treating it as a $2000 bet is the fairest solution. UTG doesn't get the advantage of having BB's extra $1800. And BB doesn't get the benefit of having his $2000 handed back to him after finding out he's a huge underdog.