ATs on the button: postflop play
 

No reads. What do you guys think of this line?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter

CO (t375)
Hero (t1445)
SB (t1605)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t3295)
UTG+1 (t1485)
MP1 (t2355)
MP2 (t1440)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t120</font>, MP1 calls t120, Hero calls t120, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t510) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t180</font>, UTG calls t180, MP1 folds.

River: (t870) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t870

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

Raise the flop.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

I raise the flop to at least 480.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

raising the flop is an option - but...

it's hard to adequately represent a hand that either won't feel they have the odds to out-improve (on this draw flop). HU, i'd be more inclined to give it a try.

not to mention the cost of finding yourself in a reraise situation.

here, i take the cheapest path to showdown, knowing full well we might be done an a 'scary' turn card/action (despite having had, or still having TPTK)

what is cheapest? certainly not raising the flop. short of a over/committing raise, you will likely get a caller (or two). you now have a turn pot completely unmanagable, possibly facing a number of scary cards. i like calling the flop.

leading the turn again? on the surface it looks a bit unwarranted - facing the check-check. but this is a classic case of pot control in the other respect...decreasing the likelihood of facing a river bluff, accepting the check-check.

by not leading the turn, you face a few situations on the river

- calling/folding to a very sizable lead (perhaps a bluff, perhaps not)
- calling a modest value bet (w/ or w/o the winning hand)
- getting it free as well

because we didn't (rightfully so, IMO) raise the flop, it's more likely one of the first two will ring true. where having faced no resistance to this point, UTG may stab/value/block again...or worse (pricing a fold from us).

assuming that we will be in a position to accept either of the two latter scenarios, i'd prefer to spend the worse case here on the turn (as you did). this is our point in time that we can decide to be done with the hand. folding to a raise, perhaps not calling an aggressive river lead (understanding that we will often get the check-check though).

all of this much easier deep-stacked on stars of course.

nh IMO.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

Bluefeet is right about his flop raise IMO. You're getting called and you won't know where you are. It'll make the hand so hard to play afterwards. I call the flop and lead out this safe turn. But I do it for more. You'll get checked to on the river almost always when you're ahead and you can take the cheap showdown. But I charge the draws while I can.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

I agree that the turn bet should have been bigger to charge the draws.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

Does anyone raise PF?

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone raise PF?

[/ QUOTE ]
I sure as hell don't.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the turn bet should have been bigger to charge the draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disagree in principal. however, we can't disregard the check-raise scenario entirely. on the flip side, we do increase the number of times we take it down here. i'm not sure how much more...1/2 pot i guess might fill both requirements. you aren't too far off.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the turn bet should have been bigger to charge the draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disagree in principal. however, we can't disregard the check-raise scenario entirely. on the flip side, we do increase the number of times we take it down here. i'm not sure how much more...1/2 pot i guess might fill both requirements. you aren't too far off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. We can fold comfortably to a c/r.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the turn bet should have been bigger to charge the draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disagree in principal. however, we can't disregard the check-raise scenario entirely. on the flip side, we do increase the number of times we take it down here. i'm not sure how much more...1/2 pot i guess might fill both requirements. you aren't too far off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. We can fold comfortably to a c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hearya - i just wanted to ensure we were on the same page regarding "more". certainly not required to approach anything near 3/4ths to pot.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the turn bet should have been bigger to charge the draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disagree in principal. however, we can't disregard the check-raise scenario entirely. on the flip side, we do increase the number of times we take it down here. i'm not sure how much more...1/2 pot i guess might fill both requirements. you aren't too far off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. We can fold comfortably to a c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hearya - i just wanted to ensure we were on the same page regarding "more". certainly not required to approach anything near 3/4ths to pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yes, glad you clarified. No I'm saying like 1/2 pot.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

Anybody with raising the flop to 445 instead of calling?

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

i raise the flop to 400. since u didn't, turn i bet about 340 into the 510 pot. river check behind is fine. what did he have KT?

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

Raise preflop.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm interested in (but skeptical of) the reasoning of those of you who would raise preflop.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

meh, no way, imo.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

no deal

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a dangerous idea. Not necessarily unprofitable for everyone, but it is for many. You have to play pretty damn well for this to even approach +EV; I don't know if it ever gets there.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

Is the purpose to charge draws, or to get as cheap a show-down as possible? These seem like conflicting requirements. If the goal is the former, it seems hero played about perfectly, at least in this particular case. If the purpose is to charge draws, then the difference between what he actually bet and half the pot is minimal.

To me the most important consideration is how much to bet to make the block on the turn work and get the free showdown. What hero did worked perfectly here, but on the average, is it a large enough bet, or would a half-pot bet accomplish the purpose enough better to be worth the extra investment?

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

IMO this line is too passive.

For sure raise the flop. This is the kind of hand where I'd want to try and protect it. He could be semibluffing with a flush draw (pretty common in small stakes), or smaller pair and str8 draw( 87s?).
I'd lead the turn, and go from there.

Brian

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

What kinds of hands limp? And, how many of those will call a decent raise? I'm not so much advocating a PF raise as I am interested in investigating it. I'm pretty curious about limpers and limping in general and think there may be something to exploit here.

A lot of the discussion around limping indicates that low and middle pocket pairs are common limping hands and that those who limp with them will often fold to a raise (even though they may be ahead of something like ATs). And, lots (not all) of hands stronger than ATs will already have raised. So, ATs maybe be ahead, and want to thin the field.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

No way I'm raising this preflop. I like your line, I think I bet about 300 on the turn though.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

[ QUOTE ]
No way I'm raising this preflop. I like your line, I think I bet about 300 on the turn though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't pretend to have an answer, or even a strong opinion. But, I am interested in reasons so that the matter can be better considered. What is it that makes you not want to raise?

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

Because an ace high flop can be really expensive. Raising when you only like a T high flop, or two pair or better seems very dangerous. I guess if you have godly postflops skills, that allows you to not lose money to AJ/AQ on an ace high flop it could be good.

Re: ATs on the button: postflop play
 

Well, we'll have position post-flop, so that should help the post-flop play. Won't AQ often be raising pre-flop? AJ would seem to be a concern.