Defending your BB in Limit
 

Just read an article in Cardplayer titled Defending Blinds. It put a new spin on Limit Blind play that I always thought was a leak in my game. When should you call, when should you fold, what hands are playable and how many ways? After reading this article I think I will defend my blind MUCH more often in Limit but as the article states it all depends on the raiser and the raisers LP (Late Position) raising frequency.

How often do you defend your blinds in a Limit ring game and why?

Defending Blinds

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

Cardplayer is bad.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

I just read the article in question and it seems to make a lot of sense (cents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) to me. I'm way too tight with my bb defense and this approach seems like it's worth a try. I'm hoping others will chime here.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

What limit are we talking about here?

Lower limits are filled with donks that play whatever two cards they get. Recognize this and about the top %50 of hands are worthy of play.

The higher the limits, the more people are likely to raise from the button.

You must decide for yourself and adapt to the situation

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

From the article:

[ QUOTE ]
...when I’m in the big blind, I’m showing an overall loss of less than one big blind with 140 of my 169 hand combinations — meaning that as of now, I do better by calling with those 140 combinations than I would by folding them. To me, this is a pretty strong indicator that all of the people who advocate a loose blind-defending strategy are on the right track.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't clear to me. Is he referring only to hands when his BB is raised? Otherwise, this doesn't seem like a good argument at all.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
From the article:

[ QUOTE ]
...when I’m in the big blind, I’m showing an overall loss of less than one big blind with 140 of my 169 hand combinations — meaning that as of now, I do better by calling with those 140 combinations than I would by folding them. To me, this is a pretty strong indicator that all of the people who advocate a loose blind-defending strategy are on the right track.

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This isn't clear to me. Is he referring only to hands when his BB is raised? Otherwise, this doesn't seem like a good argument at all.

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I don't see what is unclear. The topic is defending the bb. Doesn't this imply that someone put in a raise?

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

In the latest cardplayer, there's the article you're talking about by Matt Mattros about defending your blind strongly, but then there's another article by Barry Tanenbaum which completely contradicts it. I believe Barry's article to be more appropriate.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

Thats some seriously flawed logic to try and claim you're getting 4.5:1 heads up against a later position raiser.

While i agree in theory the odds are pretty much right to defend with any 2 cards even if you think your opponent has AK it all depends on how much faith you have in your ability to outplay you're opponent out of position.

Personally i'll wait for a better spot then 47o to defend.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

The definitive thread on blind defense.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

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The definitive thread on blind defense.

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LOL Tongue firmly in cheek I trust. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From the article:

[ QUOTE ]
...when I’m in the big blind, I’m showing an overall loss of less than one big blind with 140 of my 169 hand combinations — meaning that as of now, I do better by calling with those 140 combinations than I would by folding them. To me, this is a pretty strong indicator that all of the people who advocate a loose blind-defending strategy are on the right track.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't clear to me. Is he referring only to hands when his BB is raised? Otherwise, this doesn't seem like a good argument at all.

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I don't see what is unclear. The topic is defending the bb. Doesn't this imply that someone put in a raise?

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Perhaps it is implied. But I'd prefer he had given more specifics and stated the conditions explicitly. Since Matros has a math background maybe I should just take his claim at face value-- I'd just rather not.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

"when I’m in the big blind, I’m showing an overall loss of less than one big blind with 140 of my 169 hand combinations"


it very much looks to me that he is looking at his success rate with ANY hands in the big-blind (whether it was raised or not) and then is deciding that he should be defending with all of these hands because the win-rate with them In the BB (period) is somehow favorable for defending.


I haven't read the article...but this logic is REALLY messed-up.


the other way (and I believe incorrect) to look at it is that he actually defended his BB to a raise with all 169 combinations of hands...and believed he did the right thing with 140 of those.
Not only would this be idiotic...but I don't believe it was what he was saying anyway.


He was simply looking at his loss-rate of certain hands IN the BB (even if he saw a free-flop) and THEN came to the conclusion that obviously he should be defending against raises with these hands too.


Based on my interpretation of this along I don't think it's going to be worth my time reading this article.

If a respected poster comes on and says it actually is worth reading then I'll change my mind.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
"when I’m in the big blind, I’m showing an overall loss of less than one big blind with 140 of my 169 hand combinations"

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I am not a respected poster, but smart enough to notice that this sentence is pure crap. Take 72o as example. Let's say I decide to fold it 99% of the time, but against that weak-tight button who attempts to steal blinds with 80% of his hands and then play weak-tight postflop, I 3-bet it preflop and it is a +EV-play. Guess what, I am losing less than 1BB on average on than hand from BB [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img].

EDIT: It is even stupider. If I click check/fold on every hand from the BB and almost always check/fold postflop, I will end up losing less than 1BB on average since sometimes it will be folded around and sometimes I will flop a monster.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

Here's the thinking I find useful:

"Still another great player says he’ll usually defend with anything, even 3-2 offsuit. Good players do this because the pot is laying them 3.5-1 immediately (the raise is two small bets, the small blind and big blind total one and a half small bets, and it costs one small bet to call), and furthermore, the late-position player is going to bet the flop after the big blind checks nearly 100 percent of the time. So, in a way, we’re really getting 4.5-1 to call the raise."

Looking at it this was it's easy to see the pot odds and which hands are worth defending. I don't think 32o qualifies but 97s which I would have folded in the past seems playable to me now for example.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
From the article:

[ QUOTE ]
...when I’m in the big blind, I’m showing an overall loss of less than one big blind with 140 of my 169 hand combinations — meaning that as of now, I do better by calling with those 140 combinations than I would by folding them. To me, this is a pretty strong indicator that all of the people who advocate a loose blind-defending strategy are on the right track.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't clear to me. Is he referring only to hands when his BB is raised? Otherwise, this doesn't seem like a good argument at all.

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Those are my overall numbers for the big blind. My point was just that since I seem to be doing well from the big blind, and that loose defending is a big part of my big blind strategy, I think people who advocate loose defending are thinking along the correct lines.

Incidentally, I show a loss of more than one big blind with even fewer hands when I voluntarily put money in the pot from the big blind.

Matt

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Those are my overall numbers for the big blind. My point was just that since I seem to be doing well from the big blind, and that loose defending is a big part of my big blind strategy, I think people who advocate loose defending are thinking along the correct lines.

Incidentally, I show a loss of more than one big blind with even fewer hands when I voluntarily put money in the pot from the big blind.

Matt

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Hi Matt,

Thanks for the clarification.

I liked the article and would certainly like to believe you're right as it would help explain my own poor results in the blinds. I just would have liked to have seen you quantify your results in more detail.

I realize that this might require you to disclose information you don't necessarily want to give away, but maybe at some point you can do a further analysis. If CardPlayer isn't the right audience, there's a magazine at this site that may be interested. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

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If I click check/fold on every hand from the BB and almost always check/fold postflop, I will end up losing less than 1BB on average since sometimes it will be folded around and sometimes I will flop a monster.

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precisely....I just don't see what using 1BB as a cut-off accomplishes.


I agree that fairly loose defending (particularly against late-position steal raisers as well as in multi-way pots for just one more bet) is +EV. But this really isn't news, is it?

I guess I'll actually have to read the article in order to actually address its point/s.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

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Cardplayer is bad.

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nah matt matros knows his [censored] and this is a very good article, especially by Cardplayer's standards

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

curious...

what are your fold bb to steal and what limit are you playing?

stealthcow-

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
precisely....I just don't see what using 1BB as a cut-off accomplishes.


I agree that fairly loose defending (particularly against late-position steal raisers as well as in multi-way pots for just one more bet) is +EV. But this really isn't news, is it?

I guess I'll actually have to read the article in order to actually address its point/s.

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Just to clarify, he says less than a big blind, not a big bet. The point that Matt is making is that he has a better expectation defending against a steal raise rather than folding.

In the article he talks about defending with about any two cards (like 74o) especially against a steal raise from the button by a typical player and where the small blind has folded.

I think most players don't defend that loose, and the article is simply emphasizing that you are losing some EV by not defending loosely and that many players would gain if they just loosened up.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cardplayer is bad.

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nah matt matros knows his [censored] and this is a very good article, especially by Cardplayer's standards

[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly what I was going to say.

Re: Defending your BB in Limit
 

Personally I think 2 things; blind defense in rings is generally WAY overrated and that blind bet is no longer yours it belongs to the pot you evaluate your move based on the odds the pot is giving you.
Late in tournaments is a whole different story though.......