Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

Limped with KK in early position today,
with some success.
Now I dont want to be the victim of results oriented thinking,
so Id like to ask you how often do you do this with AA/KK?
What are the ideal conditons for limping?
When should you absolutely not do it?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 ($40.83)
UTG+2 ($23.94)
MP1 ($26.7)
MP2 ($20.4)
MP3 ($11)
CO ($6.46)
Button ($5.32)
SB ($31.85)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($7)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($35.08)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
Hero calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $0.5</font>, Hero calls $0.50, UTG+1 folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($2) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6.25</font>, BB calls $4.25 (All-In).

River: ($14.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $14.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 5s Ks (two pair, kings and fives).
Hero has Kh Kc (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $14.50. </font>

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

i'll never limp w/ AA or KK. ever

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

I only do it when there is a maniac I almost can guarantee will raise for me so that I can limp reraise....or if there is one particular person I know will overplay their hands and i'm trying to trap....generally its a standard raise for me...i don't wanna get my aces cracked by the blind's 72 offsuit that I didn't raise out.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

I raise so much other cheese that there's no reason for me to ever limp AA and KK. However, limping with the intention of raising is good if all the following conditions are met:

1) There is a very good chance somebody behind you will raise (a couple action players raising every hand, for example)
2) Your limp/reraise will be large enough to pot-commit yourself, thereby making postflop play trivially easy. The limp/reraise defines your hand so clearly that you can't afford to give somebody good implied odds to outflop you. If they take bad odds and outflop you anyway, that's just poker.

Limp/calling AA/KK is never a good idea unless the raise you are calling is large enough to pot commit you (which should rarely be the case unless you or the raiser are extremely short stacked).

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Limp/calling AA/KK is never a good idea unless the raise you are calling is large enough to pot commit you (which should rarely be the case unless you or the raiser are extremely short stacked).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Another question:
How much of your stack must go into the pot to make you commited?

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

From EP, I will limp with AA or KK if I think there's a good chance that someone will bet so I can check-raise. If nobody raises and several people see the flop, I'm prepared to let go of the hand. If a player does raise, I'll re-raise to try to get heads up.

From MP, I raise to limit the field. From LP, I always raise it. From the button, the blinds might think you're stealing. If they defend, you can re-pop them. If there are several callers and I'm in the BB, I'll make a big overbet with AA. I'm hoping someone will put me on a bluff steal out of the blinds and call.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limp/calling AA/KK is never a good idea unless the raise you are calling is large enough to pot commit you (which should rarely be the case unless you or the raiser are extremely short stacked).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Another question:
How much of your stack must go into the pot to make you commited?

[/ QUOTE ]

20% of either your stack or the raiser's stack, whichever is smaller. That's more of a rough estimate than a strict mathematical computation. Others might use a different figure.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limp/calling AA/KK is never a good idea unless the raise you are calling is large enough to pot commit you (which should rarely be the case unless you or the raiser are extremely short stacked).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Another question:
How much of your stack must go into the pot to make you commited?

[/ QUOTE ]

20% of either your stack or the raiser's stack, whichever is smaller. That's more of a rough estimate than a strict mathematical computation. Others might use a different figure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know if this has been covered in another thread?
Would be interesting to hear peoples reasoning for this or that number,
specific circumstances etc.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

flop is misplayed.

I hope you were limping with intention of limp reraising. and if you are limp reraising, don't limp reraise the min. you want to charge enough for the vast amount of info you are giving out.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

its less to do with a specific number than just thinking about "how much will I or he have left if he calls and how much will be in the pot if he calls".

if you bet 20% of your stack and its not a big overbet, then if he calls, the pot will be 60% of your original stack on the next street so probably more like 75% of your remaining stack.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

I was planning to limp-reraise, yes.
And no, I would never reraise the min.

When there is no raise,
you get a small consolation prize:
No one can guess your hand.
Which turned out to be very useful on the flop.
(no need to tell me I got very lucky)

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

At $25NL you're better off leading out for $2-5 or open pushing. At least half the time you get a caller or two or a short stack going all in.

At higher levels I never limp AA/KK either.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

Hello,

My solution is to never raise UTG. As I think that raising UTG with hands other than AA/KK/QQ would be chip spewing and raising with only this hands would give to much information, Ive chosen to never raise and often reraise depending on who raised the pot (sometimes I reraise even with JJ if raiser is very loose). I generally take it down after my reraise (which is always big) but sometimes somebody venture the call. I almost never slowplay my AA/KK unless it will be head-up and raise is just too tempting big.
I think that raising UTG give too much information to be profitable play. My limp/reraising give the same inforamtion but at least there is something in the pot to win. I make nice profit with this strategy , probably because I play in generally agressive games and I have some good reads on my opponents.

Best wishes

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

4 to the flop, I think you should raise the flop with that flush draw there.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At $25NL you're better off leading out for $2-5 or open pushing. At least half the time you get a caller or two or a short stack going all in.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably more experienced than me,
but I think a 2-5$ raise is way too high.
People call HALF the time?
In my experience its more like 10-20% of the time.
I never lead out for more than 1,5$.
Fcuk the blinds, I want a caller dammit!

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

I am generally raising so much that I have to also do it with aces and kings. This might be a flaw in my game because limping in EP might be giving away too much info.

I think if you are playing against a regular set of players that you will see often i.e. home game or long session, it is much more important to be limping with big hands at least some of the time because if you don't, they'll know when you limp that you DONT have AA/KK/QQ or whatever.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

I think a key component of limp reraising AA/KK has been missed here.

limp reraising is not about disguising your hand unless if you limp reraise with a wide spectrum of hands.

the value of limp reraising is that you don't raise and get called multiway behind you and have an unweildy pot out of position on the flop.

Example. 100xBB stacks.

I raise to 4x or 5x BB with AA/KK UTG, I get called 4or 5 ways behind me (for every additional caller, the next caller gets better odds to call).

pot on the flop is 25BB. and flop comes something like JT4 2 suited.

I have 95 left. well damn, sucks to be me doesn't it. I have to bet to charge draws but what do I do if I'm minraised? if I'm called?

I can't underbet this flop but if I bet regularly, say 15bb to 20bb, pot size becomes the same as my remaining stack on the turn. now what do I do? bet half pot fold to all in? check and hope for check behind?

the limp reraise avoids this.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

some valuable info here.
thanks.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

A key problem with limp reraising has been missed.

In a loose passive game if you raise 4-5x in EP and get a bundle of callers, ergo the problem. But in this kind of a game if you limp you are unlikely to get the chance to reraise. Most likely you limp, and 8 people see the flop of JT4 two suited. Yeah the pot's smaller, but now it will be even more impossible to figure out where you stand. Now JT and T4 and J4 and baby flush and straight draws out the wazoo are all real possibilities (especially from the blinds). It's a zoo and your reverse implied odds are sky high.

It would be easier if I'd raised 5x, gotten 3 callers and seen this flop. I at least have some idea of their holdings. My only real fear is JJ or TT. If someone called my pf raise with JT or 44 OK, but I still don't have to stack off to them. More often this is where I value bet the pants off of AJ, or just take it down with a flop bet.


Kings

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

Always raise with these hands. Always.

A minraise has benefits b/c it may get re-raised to which you can re-raise. You get the benefits of re-opening the betting to the BB yet you aren't betting too much to scare any fish away.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A minraise has benefits b/c it may get re-raised to which you can re-raise. You get the benefits of re-opening the betting to the BB yet you aren't betting too much to scare any fish away.

[/ QUOTE ]

A minraise has the enormous downside of giving away information cheaply (aka huge reverse implied odds). Many of the largest pots I've won in SSNL games are where I've flopped a garbage two pair out of the blinds and busted somebody who minraised AA and couldn't lay it down.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

if you miss the reraise its fine. Just don't get committed with just an overpair hand. while the reverse implied odds are just as high or higher with relation to how much they paid to see the flop (1BB), the absolute amount is not that much because I won't commit my stack with just an overpair.

If you think that the table is tight enough that they call you with just pocketpairs preflop or that you'll always get it 3 way with a 5xBB preflop raise then raising UTG is obviously correct.

However, in the example I showed, you have to worry about KQ, you have to worry about 89, you maybe have to worry about Q9, you have to worry about flush draw. Thats a lot of scarecards that can come on the turn or river that I don't like. Lots of scarecards that unfortunately I have to bet as default because I don't want to be bluffed out of big pot. I don't have position so I can't see what they do on the scare card.





Thats a lot of scare cards on that turn that

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

I think minraise is the worst of the 3 options.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A minraise has benefits....

[/ QUOTE ]

NEVER NEVER NEVER minraise in EP pre-flop with AA/KK.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many of the largest pots I've won in SSNL games are where I've flopped a garbage two pair out of the blinds and busted somebody who minraised AA and couldn't lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is always the problem with AA. Some people just can't let it go. If I limp with AA, I might be able to trap someone since I have added deception. But if I seven people see the flop, it's coordinated, and there's heavy betting action, I'm easily folding.

But since PT says AA is my top money winner, I'll continue to bet out most of the time and hope to get heads up with a big pair or AK.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A minraise has benefits b/c it may get re-raised to which you can re-raise. You get the benefits of re-opening the betting to the BB yet you aren't betting too much to scare any fish away.

[/ QUOTE ]

A minraise has the enormous downside of giving away information cheaply (aka huge reverse implied odds). Many of the largest pots I've won in SSNL games are where I've flopped a garbage two pair out of the blinds and busted somebody who minraised AA and couldn't lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately, the tables I've been playing have been re-raising often PF. This is why I said it's OK to miniraise in EP, b/c someone with KQ suited or the likeness will likely re-raise b/c a miniraise from EP could mean any two paint cards. You aren't giving away much info. for cheap. Again, an EP miniraise could mean any two paint cards really, we are talking 6-max here right? Plus, lets not forget that often times 6-max really only consists of 4 or 5 players so a miniraise is not the end of the world against only 3 or 4 opponents.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

you should really raise that flop.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

If somebody will reraise a minraise, they probably would've raised themselves. So limp/reraising is better than minraising/re-reraising because a limp/reraise gives away no information if there is no raise while the minraise screws you if nobody reraises. Furthermore, some hands that might've raised had you limped might just call the minraise, putting you in a position where you could've reraised had you limped but can't since you minraised. The only conceivable advantage I can see to minraising/re-reraising over limp/reraising is that its much easier to get enough of your stack in to make any flop an easy push.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

harrington on hold'em I has some good advice about playing big pairs in early position. he believes objectively the best play is to raise 3xBB. when he plays against regular opponents, though, he mixes it so he's hard to read. i don't remember exactly what he advocates, but i think it is something like 20% of the time he limps, 10% of the time he raises 5xBB, and 10% of the time he raises 2xBB. the rest of the time he raises 3-4xBB. (someone correct me if this is wrong.)

if you do minraise with these hands sometimes, you must minraise with other hands as well so you don't telegraph your holding. in general, though, i'm not a big fan of minraises.

harrington suggests using the second hand on your watch to randomize your play, which is a cool trick.

on the internet, i think i just raise 3-4xBB always, unless there are a couple of maniacs in the game. players just aren't as observant, and they come and go. no need for deception. look to play a raised pot against one or two opponents.

by the way, i'm not sure i would consider the hand you posted a "success" even though you won a nice pot. you really want someone to raise behind you so you can reraise. if you limped AA on this hand, you might have lost some cash.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

If I'm UTG with KK or AA I almost always try to limp/raise it. Sometimes they do get cracked this way... anybody can flop a low 2 pair and crack those A's/K's but you'll also win monster hands that wouldn't otherwise be played. Last night I unsuccessfully tried to limp/raise AA but got 5 more limpers instead. This is exactly the situation I don't want to be in, but luckily the flop came down A J J. I flopped the second nuts and won a big hand against somebody who had a J. If I raise from UTG I maybe get one caller if I'm lucky (who doesn't get involved post-flop with a board like that) or I take down the blinds.

The only caveat is that you HAVE to be able to release them post-flop if you're going to play like this. I just don't think that an UTG raise with AA/KK is a good way to take advantage of the hand in the long run. If nobody else at the table is gonna raise it for you then they're unlikely to call your raise.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

I limp AA and KK in EP almosr every single time. Ive done it enough to know that it is much more profitable than raising.

I dont have PT on this computer so I cant quote exact stats but believe me, my win rate when limping is signifcantly higher than when I raise.

As long as you can lay it donw to significant pressure especially from a blind when the pot is unraised, then its a very profitable play. I win alot of pretty good sized pots from people with AJ on Jxx flops...or KQ on Qxx flops etc. Alot of those people would fold AJ and KQ to a raise.

Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?
 

I also limp AA KK almost every time. The only time I wont is when I am sitting at a table with no pf raising.